Regimental Armorer Tools

[Johan Steele]

Mr Schaffner, that or one very much like it is what I recall. I have read a reference to the "Armory Sgt" at Allatoona packing all his tools into a .54 ammo crate and stowing it in the wagon with the ammunition in preperation for the march to Atlanta. I don't think all of those tools would fit into a .54 ammo crate, but by the fall of 1864 a man would likely have been able to pare it down to the absolute essentials. And an infantry unit would likely not need everything listed. The idea of using the ammo crate as a tool box makes good sense. It wouldn't be outsized on the ammo wagon and the .54 box will stand out from the .58 which the regt was carrying by that time.

I continue to acquire period tools that would be appropriate but am trying to keep it down to what might easily be carried in an ammo wagon or wound into some scrap fabric and stashed in a knapsack w/ the balance left in the chest. With the knowledge that less is more in a presentation.

My current "stage" is a half dozen various ammo crates, ledger & forms, the folding table I mentioned earlier and my crude stool w/ a dog tent kit and myself. A minimum of 3 differnt arms, sometimes in various stages of disassembly on a gum blanket. It's worked well enough so far in dealing w/ the public and explaining that there was a massive machine supporting the men in the line. People note the disassembled arms and it leads to questions. As I cannot walk very far and still have a serious weight bearing restriction this impression works well for me and allows me to stay in the field as something other than a recovering soldier in hospital. If I can both teach and learn through practical experimentation all the better.

Any suggestions to improve are useful to me, I appreciate it and owe all a thanks who have offered assistance.

[OldKingCrow]

Originally Posted by Johan Steele

My current "stage" is a half dozen various ammo crates, ledger & forms, the folding table I mentioned earlier and my crude stool w/ a dog tent kit and myself. A minimum of 3 differnt arms, sometimes in various stages of disassembly on a gum blanket. It's worked well enough so far in dealing w/ the public and explaining that there was a massive machine supporting the men in the line. People note the disassembled arms and it leads to questions. If I can both teach and learn through practical experimentation all the better.

When someone is lead to ask a question based on a living history display and impression that is not even remotely supported outside of regulation and general orders how does one answer it ?

Practical experimentation ?

[Johan Steele]

Originally Posted by OldKingCrow

When someone is lead to ask a question based on a living history display and impression that is not even remotely supported outside of regulation and general orders how does one answer it ?

Practical experimentation ?

Exerpted from Instructions for Making Quarterly Returns of Ordnance and Ordnance Stores 1 May 1864. Para 65. Regimental Armorers.-Commanding oficers of all regiments armed with any muskets, rifles or carbines, other than the Springfield rifled musket, 1855-'61-'63, are authorized to detail from their regiments a competent and skillful mechanic to act as an armorer to repair the arms of the regiment. Requisitions for a set of armorers' tools, and such spare parts as are required, stating particularly the kind and calibre of the arm, will be made by commanders of regiments entitled to armorers under this order; which requisitions, after being duly approved at the department or army headquarters, will be forwarded to the Chief of Ordnance, at Washington, for final action. Genl Orders, No 189, A.G.O., Washington, November 18,1862

Regulations are & were there for a reason, they address a particular subject for a particular reason. Noting references in multiple different generations of manuals is part of the research process.

Practical experimentation = could they have managed this repair in the field with just these tools?

Chris, It's evident you are capable of seeing only what you want to see and apparently haven't read the thread to which you are commenting on fully. I believe three people on this thread have mentioned reading letters referencing the existance and service of Regimental Armorer's to include links you could have followed to see in the original context. I've read several as well and am attempting to learn more so that I might better a portrayal and improve my impression.


Please refrain from commenting further on this thread unless you have something constructive to contribute. I'm here to learn and this part of the forum is referred to as the Camp of Instruction for a reason. " For beginners to Authentic Campaigning, Living History, or Authenticity to ask and find answers to more "basic" questions."

[Pvt Schnapps]

I think this thread raises a couple of interesting questions. First, what was in the "armorer's kit" provided by the Ordnance Department, and second, how would someone portray an armorer in the field.

The first question interests me a little more than the second, but I'm glad it came up. I'd seen references to regimental armorers before, but I always thought -- for no good reason -- that they wouldn't have that many tools and materials on hand. But between the lists of tools in the manual, the quote in the history of the Pennsylvania regiment, and the list of spare parts authorized, it seems that the "regimental armorer" was not just a skilled, and highly paid, mechanic, but responsible for something like a traveling machine shop.

As for the second question, it seems the armorer impression faces a similar challenge to that of medical impressionists -- there's a lot of stuff you could conceivably get, and it's going to cost. Worse, while I've seen some surgeon's kits with provenance, I doubt there's the same thing out there for armorers' kits. Obviously some judgment will be involved and I'm not going to second guess anyone who can base their calls on their research. It certainly sounds to me like you're on the right track.

But what do I know? I'm lucky with something like clerking. It's a lot easier to come up with forms than tools. Even so, after all this time, I'm not entirely sure what an issue penholder looked like . . .

[OldKingCrow]

Originally Posted by Johan Steele

Chris, It's evident you are capable of seeing only what you want to see and apparently haven't read the thread to which you are commenting on fully. I believe three people on this thread have mentioned reading letters referencing the existance and service of Regimental Armorer's to include links you could have followed to see in the original context. I've read several as well and am attempting to learn more so that I might better a portrayal and improve my impression.
[/i]."

What is evident that you have taken a regulation and created a specialty impression based on what you "think" the logical iteration would be. Which hey, its your hobby, make it what you wish (I guess). Like many "specialty impressions" the support for which (as evidenced in this thread as well) is lacking and based solely on your assumptions, which you then promote to the public as history. Then, again like most specialty impressionists, you get itchy when queried on your source materials which are always unidentified letters and plenty 'o he said...she said.

I don't think that is the purpose of this forum. It really isn’t personal, did you not expect someone to question the many suppositions in your posts ?

Not personal. I dont think you will comprehend that.

[lwtaggart]

Gents, I might suggest first taking a look at " The Manual for Care and Maintanance of the Rifle Musket." Can't give you the authors name off the top of my head. Placed in print for the the 1855 Springfield rifled musket, it clearly describes what is permitted and who can perform in the field the diassembly of the musket. It also gives and good detailed description of all appendages that are a part of the rifle musket. This manual later was later printed to conform to the 1861 Springfireld rifle musket. Very little change from the two manuals.

George Taggart
Lee #30 F.& A.M.

[Johan Steele]

Chris, Please refrain from commenting further on this thread unless you have something constructive to contribute. I'm here to learn and this part of the forum is referred to as the Camp of Instruction for a reason. "For beginners to Authentic Campaigning, Living History, or Authenticity to ask and find answers to more "basic" questions."

[OldKingCrow]

Originally Posted by Johan Steele

Chris, Please refrain from commenting further on this thread unless you have something constructive to contribute. I'm here to learn and this part of the forum is referred to as the Camp of Instruction for a reason. "For beginners to Authentic Campaigning, Living History, or Authenticity to ask and find answers to more "basic" questions."

What are you serious? I asked you very straight forward questions. A history professional or serious LH would be all over and proud in supporting his assertions. I am the only one in this thread that has posted a primary account of an armorer. There is nothing to contribute, that is the point.

Do you think the Camp of Instruction is meant for beginners to a give detailed description of their specialty impression with no known primary accounts or support and have people tell you the suppositions you have in your head are good to go and appropriate to promote to the public ?

[OldKingCrow]

Where is the armorer when you need him ?

"The organization of the Seventh Regiment occurred soon after the battle of Bull Run. Owing to pressing military necessity this regiment was sent to the South before it was armed. They received their arms at St Louis the flank companies A and B getting the Springfield rifle with tape self primers and the other eight companies received the improved buck and ball Springfield musket. This regiment was also given eight pieces of artillery. Belgian muskets were supplied to the Eighth Regiment at Keokuk on its way down the river to St Louis. These guns were received with dissatisfaction by the men. Uneven caliber, some crooked barrels, locks out of repair. The boys called them "pumpkin slingers" and pronounced the crooked barrels adapted to shooting around hills. The Eleventh Iowa Regiment while it has the distinction of being the first full regiment completely uniformed armed and equipped which as such trod the soil of Iowa was nevertheless unfortunate enough to secure percussion lock smooth bore muskets." Iowa Journal of History, Volume 16 By State Historical Society of Iowa

[Johan Steele]

Chris, it is apparent you have failed to read the links provided by Mr Watts. I'm not replying to your questions because it is you asking them and I am all too familiar w/ your vitriol and why you've been banned from other boards. There are other sources available than those of the internet and I created this thread in an effort to learn more. I didn't begin the thread to deal w/ you. Judging from my experiance with you in the past your demand for period sources stretches hypocricy to new levels. I'll stick to receiving my schooling from legitimate historians & researchers who have actually done the research instead of those who typed Regimental Armorer into google and claimed that's all that exists.