New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Greetings,
If this is what has became acceptable among hardcore/progressive Civil War historical interpreters, then I think are side of the hobby owes a huge apology to the mainstream vendors out there.

What we have here is a creation that doesn't follow the configuration of any documented Confederate blanket or civilian blanket with provenance to the period. Yes, there may be some rather vague descriptions out there of Confederate blankets cut from bolts of kersey cloth via small scale production, but is this good research to base an authentic reproduction from?

It appears to me from Dan's reply that this blanket wasn't a researched reproduction, but a way to make money off of some available wool material that was kinda sorta close to some documented blankets out there. Maybe, it sounds alot like the mainstream "reproductions" our side of the hobby is trying to get away from with terms like "Approved Vendor."

Darrek Orwig

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Darrek,

I see that you have not been a member of this forum long, and that a good portion of your contributions to this forum have been in the form of selling items, but in the discussions in which you have contributed you have made some very good points and contributed some excellent material. I hope that as your career on this forum and in life progresses you continue to learn and develop the same level of courtesy with which we all treat each other. In the past on this forum others have been unable or refused to learn this and they have unfortunately deprived us of the knowledge they possess.

You are obviously drawing your own conclusions from my words, and refusing to take their meaning in an attempt to make this a personal attack for whatever motives you may have.

The bottom line concerning this product is that I have examined and own several original civilian blankets of this exact material, weight, and construction. The idea that because of the particular color of the yarn these are somehow less authentic than other products I or most AC vendors carry is ludicrous. This may not meet with your own personal standards and that's fine, don't buy one, but don't turn this into a personal attack on myself, you'll find that sort of behavior will not carry you far in life.

If you wish to continue this discussion I will be happy to do so privately.


Best,

[Terry Sorchy]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Mr. Orwig,
Its is true that using existing examples is prefferable. But Sir, what percent of all the items the men used during that period survives today? Maybe at the most 2%. Just a guess. How many times have you seen guys wearing ANV documented items to an AOT event. Or have seen the wrong knapsack or belt worn at a fed event.
This blanket is not wrong, it just hasnt had the oppurtunity to survive the past 140 years. Just like the majority of original pieces havent.
Just cause one dosnt survive now do not assume that one never was made.
Terry Sorchy

[coastaltrash]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

People who do not want to be questioned should not put themselves in the position to be questioned, and on here I do not nor will I ever believe that because a product is offered by an "approved vendor" on this forum that I will not venture to find documentation or some form of information on a product added to their line or something I may be interested in before I purchase it or refer it to a friend. I also do not believe ANYONE'S time spent on this forum or posts on this forum amounts to a hill of crap in a debate over historical accuracy. I know people who do not even visit this site that I both purchase items from and would listen to for advice because of expierence in this field.

That being said- Dan has offered some very great blankets in the past. His brief run of the woolen blankets last year lined with osnaburg was perfect for all of those descriptions of blankets carried and refered to in the documentation of the time. We ALL base our impressions on brief descriptions in documentation- we all base impressions off of veterans letters etc (ie- jackets with blue collars and cuffs at Chickamauga) so the blankets from a woolen material now that documentation has been provided is not that large of a step.

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Dan,
Not a personal attack at all, my response would have been the same regardless of what vendor was associated with this product.

It appears from the private responses I have received, that I'm not the only one out there that has concerns about the research of this "reproduction."

On a final note, I have had the opportunity to examine some of Dan's work in the past that has compared favorably with original artifacts, my issue on this forum has been in regards to the blanket listed at the start of this thread and once again is not meant to be a personal attack.

I feel as living history interpreters dedicated to accuarately portraying the material culture of the era, we certainly need to not blindly accept reproductions just because an "approved vendor" is offering them.

Darrek Orwig

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Darrek,

Thanks for the post, I appreciate the clarification and I agree with you 100% about not taking vendor's word for it.

To me an important thing to remember would be that by your standard (as I understand it) nearly 100% of the shirting produced by Family Heirloom Weavers over the years would be incorrect, as well as a number of their blankets and other materials, not to mention several of their coverlets and ingrain carpets. I am personally in awe of Pat Kline's knowledge of period textiles and ability to create excellent, authentic-looking materials and patterns. But the vast majority of his shirtings and other patterns are creations he came up with after years of research into 19th century textiles, but because he did not copy a specific original shirting with his ideas should we all throw our shirts, blankets, and garments lined with his goods on a bonfire?

Pat has for years created authentic shirtings and coverlet patterns based on his extensive knowledge of the subject, and has taken it a step further to try and represent a small portion of the plethora of styles and colors used during the period we portray. This, on a much smaller scale, is what I try to offer with my blankets. I certainly have never begrudged Pat for his shirting creations, and by the looks of how fast they used to sell out the authentic community as a whole hasn't either. I'm not sure if or why a different standard somehow applies to my goods.

Again, your personal standards may differ from mine or the fellow next to you, but to state here that because I do not meet your personal standards means that I do not belong here on the AC is rash at best. The only suggestion I can give is to vote with your check book. If a vendor or item doesn't meet your standards, don't purchase from them. Just as if an event does not meet your standards, vote with your feet and don't attend. But I will suggest with the utmost humility and sincerity that in the future you think twice before making these types of statements against a person's livelihood, and means of supporting their family, it is an unfortunate truth that it can become very personal very fast.


Best Regards,

[Spinster]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

We ALL base our impressions on brief descriptions in documentation- we all base impressions off of veterans letters etc (ie- jackets with blue collars and cuffs at Chickamauga) so the blankets from a woolen material now that documentation has been provided is not that large of a step.

Excellent point Mr. Landrum, and an excellent piece of transcript by Mr. Weddle.

Increasingly, we see more source material consisting of written descriptions of items for which an extant original has not come into the public eye, or no longer exists at all. As the South Carolina Relic room publishes more of the McRae papers, we'll have even more research challenges to piece together a representation of specific items from multiple sources.

In looking to how one deals with items for which a particular extant does not exist, I look to three things: Period Materials, Period Methods, Period Mindset.

The material in question is, without a doubt, a woolen woven material of the type that can be made into kersey. Kersey, by definition, is a coarse twill weave material, that then gains much of its appearance by fulling, brushing, and pressing, which first raises the nap, and then tightens it to a smooth finish.

Why this particular run of kersey only made it through the sponging stage is a lesson in modern world economics and politics best not gone into here. Suffice it to say that the services of custom finishing mills are not readily available as they were even a few years ago, and hand finishing this stuff is too cost prohibitive in terms of labor. Trust me on this one--I've hand finished my own handwoven material for a number of years----and like weaving coverlets, I will not thread my loom for the charge that FHW does for a finished item.

But this is definitely a Period Material.

Now, lets then look at blanket making in general. What makes a blanket warm? Little air pockets in the weave trap heat. A plain weave blanket, pound for pound is less efficient than a twill weave blanket, simply because the geometry of the weave offers less opportunity to trap air.

A large number of period blanket drafts are variations on twill--while many deal with a balanced 2/2 twill, some go for a 1/3 twill---giving even more loft, and exposing more of the weft yarn to the fulling process, raising more nap, and trapping more heat. One can also pack more weft yarn into a twilled weaving pattern than a plain weave--an additional way to make the blanket warmer.

Those folks were not foolish--they knew cold, and knew ways to mitigate it. Twill blankets were more functional in the cold than plain weave blankets.
This particular material is a twill wool material---just as easily made into blanket as uniform, depending on the finishing process used on the material.

Certainly a Period Methodology for making a blanket.

While dyeing is my area of expertise, the items that we as a community choose to replicate in period dyes varies with availability of the dye processes for particular types of fabric---some dyes can no longer be produced, or produced at a price that we can swallow. (I've recently quoted some cochineal dyed woolen tape to a feller who nearly went into apoplexy). Nor is anyone raising the question of whether the wool utilized comes from a period breed. Some few will follow these steps on an individual basis--more power to them, but these few will not occur in numbers to field an army.

But this material is certainly in a color commonly available, and easily made in home use (and after all, we are talking about very limited run of a civilian made blanket). Indigo on white wool, or even better yet, on gray wool (yep, there are grey sheep, and brown ones, as well as the black sheep we all know and love) will produce a blue grey material. Specially if you kicked in a little logwood or sumac for good measure.

So, the color certainly works for a sturdy utilitarian blanket.

And finally, there is the need for a Period Mindset in looking to various reproductions from written descriptions. This is where things begin to get dicey, because there is the most room for conjecture and disagreement.

But, in a wartime economy, with blankets in such need at the front that I as a homemaker am being called to take the blankets from my bed and the carpets from my floors, and send them to the army----if I've got a length of unfinished, unfulled twill woven material, then I'm going to put it together and send it off with my son, brother, nephew, neighbor, without waiting for the time consuming nicety of fulling and brushing to make a proper blanket that I'd be proud to have on the bed in my front room.

And that's my idea of a Period Mindset, and the type of product production process that comes from looking at multiple factors in the process.

Interestingly, I recently examined a period blanket that was twill weave, blueish brown, and essentially unfulled except in certain areas of wear.

So, that's one way to think about this particular run of blankets--from someone who currently has 18 yards of natural dyed, 3/1 twill, wool warp and weft blanket material on her personal loom.

Come fall, if I still have not managed to leave Daddy's and get back to that loom, I'll be whining to see if there are any more of these blankets available.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Mrs. Lawson, Great post!

If I were a vendor, I would hate to go through a crucible like this every time I wanted to put a new product out there. Here's to you, Dan and Brian, and all your colleagues in the biz! I would hate putting up with guys like me! ;)

However, I think peer review of offerings is a good thing, as long as it is objective and sticks to the facts.

[Spinster]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Thank you Mr. Wickett--the wealth of period knowledge required to make a simple piece of woolen fabric is astounding---and sometimes even paralysing as one question after another rises to the surface--its difficult to get anything done and development takes time and research---and I'd much rather be at the loom than have my nose in a book. I'm always thankful when those with a talent for that vital work posts the information they have obtained.

Dan and I discussed privately the difficulties in finishing fabrics--a problem that we all will see on an increasing basis

Now, I'm trying to think on how to express the steps in that process so that the brave or foolhardy can undertake it themselves--trouble is, so much of hand finishing these fabrics is dependant on an experienced eye and hand----I'm having a hard time reducing to print the proper feel of a 'done' fabric in the fulling process---especially since for me and my equipment, it involves placing my hands in scalding soapy water repeatedly, until the fabric is 'right'.

I've also seen period accounts of blankets coming in on the roll and being cut from there----almost by definition in the process, this means that those particular blankets were rolled straight off the loom, and were never fulled in the first place. So in this particular run, one can choose to have a blanket in its 'just off the loom' state, or one can choose to properly full it by period methods.

Now, I've been trying to find willing victims.....er, participants for a period 'waulking'--a certain way to finish a blanket. Based on some things we've done in the last few months, I now think I have several willing hands, I just haven't actually asked them yet.

Y'all look that term up and see who is game........:p

[2ndva]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Well, according to this site http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Waulking I hope you werent planning on using the Roman method! :D

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Scouring
In Roman times, human urine was used instead of fuller's earth, and slaves would stand ankle deep in tubs of urine and cloth.

Mmmm... Sounds great! Sign me up!! :sick:

[DougCooper]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Ditto what has been said here by Mr L and Mrs L.

In case nobody has noticed, the state of the authentic vendors in the hobby today is VERY difficult. These guys and gals also notice a nadir in attendance in the hobby but whereas we get bummed out by smaller events and reenactor math, they have to contemplate part or full time jobs outside the hobby to feed the family.

In this environment they are the only business folks I know who open themselves up to such public scrutiny of their product development process...and then endure the open debate which often even includes their competitors on other boards - a really crazy environment! Imagine if two makers of skis shared all their research on an open forum and then invited everyone, layman to expert, and even competitors, to comment. Right, it does not happen anywhere else.

Dan and Brian (nor the others) don't willy nilly toss something out there hoping somebody will buy it. That is the purview of the mainstream or worse vendors for whom reputation and fidelity takes a back seat to profit.

We should be extremely grateful that the vendors don't settle and produce items they could sell to the masses but which they know would be unacceptable to us. Who among us has the integrity to stick to their values when paying the bills would be much easier if they started cutting corners or simply began importing Pakistani garbage and taking their huge profit margin? In a way, the authentic vendors are prisoners of their own success and their values - they can't go back. I would like to say thanks!!!

Sometimes we can't own a repro of an original - socks, blankets, hats, drawers, shirts - think of all the items we except as good enough because they are made under Terre's mantra: Period Materials, Period Methods, Period Mindset. Period example would be great, and some of us can afford to wait until a repro Lt Stenhouse blanket is produced. But for most of us, this is good enough.

Call it the Penitentiary Jacket syndrome - we have QM descriptions of the pattern and the fabric/buttons and probable photos. But except for the Appler (only possible) we have no original. Yet many in the hobby think it perfectly OK to own one because we know thousands were made. Ditto on Pat Kline's blankets. I own an original blanket almost exactly like a repro Pat made - color, weight, weave, even stripe width. Now Pat did not own this blanket, so obviously this is a standard pattern.

Said another way - is it OK to order a reproduction of the Cooper CS frock (original frock that Charlie Child''s pattern is based on) in BG kersey when the original is jean? How about changing the lining and the buttons?

[Citizen_Soldier]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Dan,
If someone's livelihood and means of supporting thier family is reproducing historic artifacts, then they should research they items they are making reproductions of instead of using mainstream sutler logic in order to justify the sale of thier goods. There has been many contributers into this discussion, but still I haven't seen any solid material that would suggest to me that blankets in the configuration you are selling would be acceptable for use by those attempting to authentically portray a mid 19th century soldier or civilian.

The references shared are interesting, but the blankets being offered by your company lack end stripes that were prevalent on the specific original blanket descriptions and photos being shared. How does the selvage of your company's reproduction blanket compare with that of original military blankets in collections? In addition the material with origins to Ryan Weddle is great, but it isn't specific enough in my opinion to draw the conclusion that it justifies the use of two yards of uncut unfinished wool Kersey blankets as miliary.

The account of Kersey blankets being cut from the roll that was shared earlier in the thread, what color were they? What were their dimensions? Were they made of fabric with a much narrow width than what is typical today and possibly seamed together?

Does anyone have any probate records, examples with provenance, or solid with a doubt photographs of this type of blanket being used in numbers by the civilian population? If not, how can we state that these are acceptable for civilian usage. How can you accurately state that the "originals" in your collection are from the period of the Rebellion if there's no documentation of their usage? Just because something is old, it doesn't mean it dated to the mid 19th century....the examples in your collection may be from ca. 1910 for all we know.

So if I go by the logic shared by some contributers to this thread....if I find an old pair of wool suit trousers in a trunk I can automatically begin making and marketing them as reproductions because...they're old and that makes them appropriate to the Rebellion era, they are made of wool and since trousers of the Rebellion period are sometimes wool and it's a sturdy fabric...it's cool to use them for Civil War living history, and they have pockets, trousers from the period have pockets...so they have to be mid-19th century, not only that but since they don't follow any documented pattern they are perfect to use for a CS/civilian impression and since such a small example extant material culture exists from the rebellion, anyone can't claim they weren't used because here is a manifest saying trousers were issued from "something small and local depot" in 1863. This is really silly, as these trousers could date to ca. 1940 and still be acceptable to authentically minded living history interpreters by using this logic.

Darrek Orwig

[PvtSchultz]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

Mr. Orwig,

While I have no problem with you attempting to foster a discussion on authenticity, I have not seem to much in the way of documenation on your part to disprove what is being offered out there. For what's worth, instead of wagging your finder at a vendor, perhaps you could do your own research and shop based on the information you have! As the Syms & Co like to say on their commercials, "an educated consumer is our best customer."

Frankly I do believe it is entirely impossible for anyone in this time to make anything absolutely authentic for theperiod of our discussion, especially with respect to clothing and fabric. Short of having an absilutely perfect, untouched example that has no environmental damge or cganges to it, can any of us say for certain what color anything truly was back then? With regards to blankets and uniforms yes we have documenation that tells us what the soldier was to have, we have Quartermaster reports listing the purchases made but can we say that what a soldier was issued att he start of his military life was the same as to what he wore or carried by the time he left the service? Who are we to tell what he had, for all we know, a person could be wearing a one of a kind article of clothing (socks, drawers, shirt) made by a loved one at home or by the women of his home town. Using your perspective, we would have to shy away from the use of such garments because we did not have a pedigree attached to the article or worse yet the amount of items produced by these loved ones was so small it doesn't warrent you even looking into having an item like that as part of your overall impression.

The Civil War had many standards when it came to what was and what wasn't authentic. But we all know the that Quartermaster and supplies were not sufficient at times nor were the quality controls always in place to ensure uniform manufacturing. Instead of stating your opinion about a particular product,perhaps you could provide some historical research and documentaion to back your stated position. That way the rest of us, including those vendors who work through this forum can learn from your research and thereby better our overall impression. Just a thought...

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: New CS/Civilian Blanket and CS Canteen Slings IN STOCK!

I believe that this thread has been just about beat to death with diatribes and rhetoric. We can all agree that there are many variables in the production of authentic goods, that this blanket doesn't come from an exact original, but I also believe that there is more than enough reference out there to hold this product up to the scrutiny of many, if not most, progressive living historians. As it has been said previously, if you don't want it, don't buy it. If you don't like the information provided, thats great as well, but nothing is being solved here by comparing craftsmen and historians to mainstream sutlers and other such ilk. There has been enough flame here to burn down several Carolina mills.