Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

[paulcalloway]

I feel as living history interpreters dedicated to accuarately portraying the material culture of the era, we certainly need to not blindly accept reproductions just because an "approved vendor" is offering them.

Derrek and others -

The Approved Vendors term does not equate to the AC rubber-stamping every item that an Approved Vendor could ever offer.

We've never said that, in fact I have always said you need to do your own research. I could probably point to a dozen posts I've made over the years saying that, if in fact they haven't been lost in the various crashes.

These vendors put forth new products all the time and we can't possibly look at every item... what we've done is to look at their over-arching business model of our vendors to make sure that we're all on the same page.

The Approved Vendor program is a process that vendors go through - and a lengthy one at that - to insure that their materials, patterns and methods are authentically based and that their business practices are fair and above board.

Frankly, this site doesn't generate enough $$$ for us to review every item these vendors have to offer. Again, thats why you need to still do your own research.

[JimConley]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

The Approved Vendors term does not equate to the AC rubber-stamping every item that an Approved Vendor could ever offer.

We've never said that, in fact I have always said you need to do your own research.

Paul,
I'm glad to hear you say this, because I think that the AV list has been abused by many.

How many times has there been a thread where some fellow asks who makes the best fatigue blouse, or whatever, and have the answer either curtly or laughingly thrown out as, "check the approved vendors list." If those who have hurled such a reply really stick to the AV list, fine, but at least name names and some reasons why a certain AV makes the best fatigue blouse.

Now, I know that my observation can be quickly disregarded because folks do get tired of the same "who makes the best..." questions. But, I have a feeling that some might be taking the AV list as gospel, while there are those of us that know that not to be the case.

[DougCooper]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

Paul,
I'm glad to hear you say this, because I think that the AV list has been abused by many.

But, I have a feeling that some might be taking the AV list as gospel, while there are those of us that know that not to be the case.

I think most of us already know this, but it does bear repeating. The AC Approved Vendors list is simply a good place to start doing research...and is especially valuable for a newbie to immediately separate the wheat from the mainstream chaff. Its like any other research data base - still up to the individual to take the next steps. But there are a number of folks who do excellent work that are not on the list, and I see no problem with us detailing their names and websites on here as well. In fact, I see that done all the time. Many of us use the PM system as well to help new folks. If I know a great item is made by someone not on the list, I will pass that along. Those of us who have done and are doing research into these items have an obligation to share.

In the day every unit had an authentic suppliers list that was a product of much research and consensus...and folks responsible for keeping it updated. My unit is extemely dedicated to that concept and the list is rather short for each item - and we members really appreciate that. With the fractionalization of the hobby, more folks are on their own hook and the AC fills the void for them. That is a good thing...since "Ask the Capt or ask the Orderly" does not seem to work as well as it once did.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

You mean like modern latex painted knapsacks because the "Approved Vendor" is afraid of spontaneous combustion if period correct boiled linseed oil were used? There aren't many period accounts of that being a problem. And so on...One approved vendor, "The Watchdog" evaluates products and publishes product reviews (both positive and negative) for this exact reason.

The Watchdog Quarterly was started by current Civil War Historian editor Nicky Hughes and has a long history of evaluating products and publishing impartial product reviews. We have the scars to prove it. The Watchdog accepts no advertising. The first issues date back to the early 1990s. Despite recent forays into book publishing, The Watchdog continues to test and evaluate products, and publish product reviews submitted by subject matter experts. Additionally, we provide feedback to vendors interested in improving their products. And as a non-profit 501(c) all proceeds beyond expenses go to battlefield preservation.

Those interested in "Getting It Right" might want to check the website which has an index of all the reviews, and could prove helpful as a starting off point for your research. www.watchdogreview.com. Point being, as stated above, an Approved Vendor may make some excellent products and still may not be up to the standards of the A-C for everything they produce. There are no "rubber stamps". That said, we are fortunate to have some really talented craftsmen listed among the "Approved Vendors" along with a few that cut some corners.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

Craig,
Does the linseed debate need to be brought back into this? A lot of people who claim to have 100% correct paint, do not, just like a lot of this 100% wool really is not. Serio's products are well constructed where some hide poor construction behind the label of period correct paint.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

Curt frequently refers to a "sliding" scale of authenticity of individuals, based on each person's level of knowledge, etc.

I think this scale slides in multiple directions, increasing the need for folks to know more about the historical accuracy of different products. For example...

There is a minimum level of historical accuracy of impressions I expect to see at a "quality" event.

I have a higher standard for products I recommend to others.

Higher still is the standard to which I hold the products that I make or buy. That doesn't mean that I'm a snob or that I look down on those with stuff on the above categories... Rather, this is just something I put some focus on. Others focus on different things and that's great, as long as we (collectively) meet some minimum standard.

On the other side of the coin, although each item I wear/carry at a particular event, while a good reproduction, might not be appropriate for each scenario. For example, I only own Federal cartridge boxes, but wear one of them each time I portray a rebble (please don't hate me!!). :wink_smil

[paulcalloway]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

You mean like modern latex painted knapsacks because the "Approved Vendor" is afraid of spontaneous combustion if period correct boiled linseed oil were used? There aren't many period accounts of that being a problem.

Actually I can point you to an internet article about a reenactor who used to be in my mess and who burnt down his girlfriends apartment by improperly putting away linseed oil rags. He ended up settling out of court with Allstate.

We need to take care not to make light of the spontaneous combustion issue - don't read that as an excuse to go farby, just an acknowledgement that is a very real issue.

The Watchdog Quarterly was started by current Civil War Historian editor Nicky Hughes and has a long history of evaluating products and publishing impartial product reviews. We have the scars to prove it. The Watchdog accepts no advertising. The first issues date back to the early 1990s. Despite recent forays into book publishing, The Watchdog continues to test and evaluate products, and publish product reviews submitted by subject matter experts. Additionally, we provide feedback to vendors interested in improving their products. And as a non-profit 501(c) all proceeds beyond expenses go to battlefield preservation.

The Watchdog is an Approved Vendor here on the AC - that is true. But Bill Christen is to my knowledge our contact and the rightful representative of the Watchdog. He needs to make these sorts of announcements and/or plugs himself or appoint you as his rightful mediator.

[CJDaley]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

How many times has there been a thread where some fellow asks who makes the best fatigue blouse, or whatever, and have the answer either curtly or laughingly thrown out as, "check the approved vendors list." If those who have hurled such a reply really stick to the AV list, fine, but at least name names and some reasons why a certain AV makes the best fatigue blouse.

I totally agree and so do the approved vendors, and that's what the other vendor folder is for. It's a place to talk about all the great craftspeople in the hobby who don't frequent these forum.

Just to be clear, authentic vendors like Childs, Tart, Kline and others aren't approved vendors mainly because they don't want to be. They don't frequent these forums and don't care to join the program. It's not because we don't like those guys or don't think thier stuff is authentic enough.

some might be taking the AV list as gospel, while there are those of us that know that not to be the case.

My suggestion Jim is to volunteer to help out the forums. If you aren't happy with something, then help out Paul and the gang to fix it. We all enjoy these forums and want them to prosper, but I think a grass roots effort from the members base is the way to go.

If you've got an idea how to better the approved vendor program we (the vendors) and they (the forum owners) want to hear it.

This isn't a personal attack Jim, but I'm asking you for your help. You are a frequent contributor on these forums, a respected member of the hobby and obviously care enough to chime in. If you think there is a way to improved the approved vendor program, the vendors need to know your thoughts.

ALL: My request for Jim's help is a request for everyone. Don't just use the 'alert' buttons to complain, but submit your ideas, suggestions and compliments. Let the forum owners know what works and what doesn't work.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

ALL: My request for Jim's help is a request for everyone. Don't just use the 'alert' buttons to complain, but submit your ideas, suggestions and compliments. Let the forum owners know what works and what doesn't work.

If I may be so bold as to add to that...
Come forward with answers, as well as questions. Post some info here that will help folks figure some of this stuff out...
- Share some detailed pics or descriptions of original items so folks will no a good one when they see it.

- Compare and contrast items you see from various vendors and (more importantly) compare the repro to its original counterpart.

- Anything else that might help.

Griping in the hopes that someone will be motivated to find the answer is a wasted effort. However, if you take the first step toward finding the answer, you will find a lot of folks will step up and help you get the rest of the way there.

...but this is coming from a guy that wears a US cartridge box when portraying a reb, so take it with a grain of salt... I'm sure Landrum is going to kick me out of his company at TAG3 for my earlier post. You friggin' hardcores are ruining this hobby! :tounge_sm

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

Agree with Wick, as usual. Two things and then I will go away, move on to other things...First, to tag on to what CJ Daley wrote...Paul and the other moderators work very hard to make the Forum what it is, and I have always found them direct, helpful and honest. And Chris is right, we all need to volunteer to help where we can or reciprocate to assist w/ feedback. People who post here often provide good information or sometimes just voice their opinions, which is fine but the Forum moderators can use a hand.

And 2nd, there are vendors who make excellent products as well as other subject matter experts that chose not to get involved here. This is fine, too. However, the point is you have to want to help where you can or philosophically why bother at all? As far as this topic "Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubbler stamp", not speaking as a "mediator" for the Watchdog or any approved vendor, but most of us don't really have a dog in the fight. Which means...BIRD is BIRD however you want to paint it. Later.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

Hallo!

Looking under the crown of an old dusty worn-out moderator's hat here...

Herr Paul said:

"These vendors put forth new products all the time and we can't possibly look at every item... what we've done is to look at their over-arching business model of our vendors to make sure that we're all on the same page."

and

The caveat about a lad doing research to be an educated consumer, informed customer, and knowing why a Widget is the "best" and not just who "makes the best Widget" has been a common Mantra here for many years.
HOWEVER, membership and readership cycle, and the Broken Record Mantra may not be as "current" as it once was.

In a previous discussion from a few years back... ;-) :-)

The discussion of makers/vendors and "AC Approved Vendors" had been discussed as to what could be done to ensure, assure, or insure that the label "Approved Vendors" was a certification safeguarding that that vendor's line of offerings was to currently accepted high "standards?"

While the Moderator Panel had some excellent lads with knowledge, access to current research, references, collections, and access to public and private collections, etc., that "collective body of knowledge was neither complete nor perfect.

Second, there existed NO mechanism or vehicle, or process, for vendors to provide samples and examples of their products for review and referencing. And with the Moderators were paid, they could not afford to buy everything. ;-) :-)

And even if they did, the time to evaluate and report on the myriad of makers/vendors past, present, and in the future would have been a full time job even if were to have been possible. (So at best it would have been a limited smattering of heres and theres.)

Yes, I am also found of using the "Sliding Scale of Authenticity" for makers/vendors' offerings as well.
But would point out that there is also a combination of "Sliding Scale of Imperfection" at work in terms of what the Current State of the Art is that the F/M/P/C/H/A communites "accept."
While the Gold Standard is said to be:

1. Period raw materials
2. Period patterns, models, and forms
3. Period methods of manufacture

"We" also accept "lookalikes" for reasons of raw materials not being made any longer, or methods of manufacture no longer being available, or the expense of bringing them back or actually using them is astronomical and not economically viable.
One such example is the use of "lookalike" modern aniline blue dyes that simulate indigo for Federal wear.
Another is the use of "hot dipped"' or even soldered coated steel plate that are supposed to simulate Period pickling process sheet iron.
Or the use of northern Italian Hardwood for Pennsylvnia grown American Black Walnut for Springfields...

But even with "caveats" and "warning labels" at the top indicating that we need to research first to become educated consumers and informed customers, etc., etc., it can be much like the warning on some lawnmowers: "Do not use to trim hedges."
Some lads will not read or heed, and go on to lose fingers and hands...

Curt

[JimConley]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

If you've got an idea how to better the approved vendor program we (the vendors) and they (the forum owners) want to hear it.

Chris,
If my personal opinion were really important enough for that kind of consideration, I would gladly try my best to meet such a challenge. In other words, I don't know exactly what Paul and whoever else handles the AV program really hope to communicate or gain from the idea. As Paul mentioned, financial support is not overwhelming, and approving a vendor does help with the AC utility bill. Not to say that the administration are money grubbers by any stretch, mind you.

But, what is the overall process for approval? Does someone get approval because they can show some notes of research and their reproductions are simply better than your run-of-the-mill gear? I really don't know. Point being, just because a fellow might know everything there is to know about a fatigue blouse or a cartridge box, and maybe has drafted his own pattern from an original does not mean that his reproduction of that item is the best available. And, simply because it might be BASED on an original does not mean it sets the bar, necessarily.

My personal approach has always been to find the best maker of specific items. If I were to make an approved vendors list of my own, each item would have one or two, and on a rare occasion, three vendors for that item. If a committee of my selection were to set up the AV list, there really would not be a whole lot of names to choose from.

We should all agree by now that quality reproductions should be based on the patterns, materials, and construction that most closely exemplify originals. In my opinion, there are plenty of vendors that do a decent job at this point, but there are only a handful that really grasp the complexity of correct reproductions and show that in their products.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

But, what is the overall process for approval? Does someone get approval because they can show some notes of research and their reproductions are simply better than your run-of-the-mill gear? I really don't know.

One thing to remember is that, back about the time when the AC started and earlier, if you wanted quality gear, you had to deal with a lot of highly skilled but unreliable craftsmen. You would hear about the next great maker through the largely non-internet grapevine, get their contact info, make (gasp!!) phone call, and send off money hoping (!!!) that maybe, someday, eventually, hopefully, you'd get the item you paid for in the mail. Yes, there were great, reliable vendors like Charles Childs. However, does anyone remember "In Touch With History"? ...aka "Out of Touch with Reality"? Nuf sed.

One of the goals of the AV list was to create a list of reliable vendors of quality (caveats of this thread duly noted in relation to quality) products for the benefit of the hobby. Being an AV is voluntary, which is why you don't see guys like Childs and Serio on the list. They do just fine on their own. However, if a vendor chooses to be an AV, then they basically apply... I've been out of the game a while, so I'm a bit out of touch with the details from that point.

Back to your original question: No, being an AV does not mean that a maker's gear is the acme of historical accuracy. Referring back to my earlier post (re: sliding scale), I would say that there is a minimum expectation for AV goods, generally speaking. However, that does not mean that 100.000% of the items offered by each AV meet that standard.

If your goal is to meet the minimum standard so that you can attend a "good" event and not be kicked out for farby gear, shop the AV list and you should be good to go. If you hold yourself to some higher standard, you still need to do some homework. I think the latter situation is what most of us are trying to flesh out.

[CJDaley]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

Chris,
If my personal opinion were really important enough for that kind of consideration, I would gladly try my best to meet such a challenge.

Jim,
You have opinions, we all know that, and you voice them all the time. All I'm asking is that you or anyone else who has opinions about this forum, should step up and help out. Sitting around a campfire at Vicksburg or Goose Creek Bridge and bitching about the hobby isn't going to fix anything, taking a leadership roll online and in the field is how change will occur.

Again, I'm not picking on you, your just the first person to respond on this thread and as your friend, I felt that I could call upon you to step up. It's obvious from your "authenticity decline" poll that you don't feel like the hobby is heading in a direction authentic enough for you. If that's the case, it's up to you to change it.

[Matt Woodburn]

Re: Approved Vendors label is NOT a rubber stamp

Jim and All,

To answer the question of what is the process to become an Approved Vendor, I give you what I have done for the past two and a half years running the program.

What factors do we take into consideration?
1) Authenticity: "Patterns, materials, and construction" are considered. Has this person viewed the original they are copying, have they done their research, does the repro match the original as close as possible? Or if there is not a specific example, are correct materials used, known construction techniques employed? I have used the current vendors and others that I know who have some expertise in an area to help me evaluate. While I have been a serious student of blankets for some years now, I am not an expert in all things. So I have had to rely on a pool of knowledge from others. At times I have requested an applicant bring their wares before a group for evaluation.

2) Longevity: One of the most common reasons a person is denied is because they've only been in business a few weeks. I've wanted established and solid businesses as vendors. One of the most frequent reasons for someone being denied is that we don't know enough about this person. Either we've never heard of them, or can't find a hobbyist who's done business with them. About half of the applicants get turned down and never go into the "evaluation hopper" on this basis. I want to see a good track record.

3) Contact info and customer service: Does this person have published contact info and/or can you reach them via e-mail or phone. Knowing that the vast majority of our vendors are part-timers we know this may difficult, but we like to see that there is a system in place for the customers to make contact with them. And I don't care how perfect a reproduction someone makes if they have bad customer service. That means the Admins and Mods will be flooded with emails and PMs complaining and asking us to help them with their problem. I'm not willing to increase the work load and truth be told we can't do much to help anyone. The problems that have come up with Approved Vendors that I've dealt with have been resolved. Most of it is simple impatience.

These factors are in place to ensure that when you buy from an AC vendor you get the best possible 'widget' available with the least problems getting it.

Now are there other great vendors who make great products that are not Approved Vendors here? Absolutely. They just choose not to be part of our program for their own reasons. That's fine. And as an example of why a vendor wouldn't want to be on here, someone mentioned in this thread that Bob Serio of Missouri Boot and Shoe is not an Approved Vendor here. He is, you just haven't looked at the Approved Vendor list in the last couple months. I've not made an announcement in the place where most people will see it because he doesn't want the extra business right now. Really! Bob doesn't want the business right now. He's a sharp businessman. If just 100 people ordered shoes all at once, that would swamp him. Items would come slowly and people would say bad things. He knows that and isn't willing to let that happen. He intends to expand his production capacity and THEN make the big public announcement. He and I discussed it at length a couple months ago. Now that's smart.

Bottom line, and I've said this before. Research what you want to buy. Learn about it. Do not buy because someone is an Approved Vendor. Be an informed consumer.