New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

[D F Smith Historic]

HI All,

I have noticed for some time that while there are some excellent de-farbed and authentically made and marked long arms & pistols available. There aren"t many good sources for the more common type CS sabers.

There are available some nice copies of the more rare marked Nashville, and Memphis sabers. But very few good repros of the unknown maker "Dog River" types that are by in large CS copies of the M1840 heavy sabre.

These sabres were used in the eastern and western CS armies in sizeable numbers, as extant originals would suggest. Originals are sometimes encounterd with proveance attesting to being used by Infantry officers and the artillery as well.


I am looking into offering defarbed "Dog River" sabres. The Dog Rivers will include:

Dismounting the hilt to do the follwing

1) Re grinding of the blade to shape it more properly, completing an "Un-stopped Fuller" (aka blood groove) and blade edge

2) Getting rid of the incorrect wrapping and wire & Re wrapping the grip with real painted or oil cloth, and re wireing with copper wire.

3) Re shaping the gaurd bow, fileing to the proper shape by hand as many were done, giving a more square apperance to the edges of the guard.

4) Re shaping the pommel cap , & re mounting the hilt on to the completed blade

5) Re shaping the brass throat of the scabbard, by making it more diminished as per originals

6) Re shaping the brass drag of the scabbard to match originals by cutting off the excess & making it smaller, finshing by hand fileing.

7) Marking the scabbard throat and the side of the guard with matching marks for the sword & scabbard. These marks ar as per originals encounterd by fileing a Roman numeral roughly by fine file.

8) Finally marking the quilion ( the flat of the blade up by the guard ) with "TMD" to mark it as a reproduction , It is coverd by the leather bumper (aka leather washer)


The swords , as per originals of this type will exhibet file marks on soem parts of the saber wher it was finished. These are not rough marks as the per the original they are not pollished out all the way, as on their US counter parts.


Here are pics of the first test one for feed back, These swords would be for sale at $214

This first one is for sale

I look forward to hearing the responces


All the best

Don S

[August77]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Don,

I think this is a great thing! Certainly needed in the hobby. Good luck with the project.

Bill Lomas

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Hi Bill ,

Thanks for the encouragement.. I appreciate it!

It was a fun project. I love working with metal. I am looking forward depending on intrest to offering these , and possibly doing defarb work for folks on their existing sabers.

Many of the repops of the US swords are actulally closer in quality to the best of the CS produced swords and can be made into a CS "Dog River" at a reasonable cost.


All the best

Don S

[ney]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

I am total impressed. Certainly a needed item.

Jake Beckstrand

[Ltkris81]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

I agree with Mr. Beckstrand. Good show Don. And these are not priced more than the "good" repops that some vendors are selling that leave something to be desired. If only I still Tyled....... :tounge_sm

[Tom Craig]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Don,

As a cavalry reenactor I can certainly say that there is a need for better quality sabres! I have only ever seen a very small handful of repro sabres that looked, or felt anything like an original. For that reason many of us carry orginal sabres...

I honestly know VERY little about CS material culture, but I can say this is a decent looking product from a production standpoint. I know just how bad most repro sabres look, and you made this one pretty handsome by comparisson.

Now the question is....are you willing to try your hand at Federal blades?!

One other thought in terms of feedback: There are a few folks on this forum who are very knowledgable about CS cavalry, but they haven't chimed in here. In fact I think I am the first cav guy to do so. You may want to repost this under a different subject line, or in the cavalry forum because I honestly hadn't looked at this discussion until today when I was trying to kill some time. I didn't think that the subject pertained to my area of interest until I actually read the post.

Take care,
Tom Craig

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Hi Tom,

Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it.

In general CS sabers are all over the map in quality. Except for a very few CS Sabers (Leach and Rigdon , Memphis Novelty, Palmeto Armoury, McElroy & Hunt and a few others) CS sabers are in general inferior in quality of temper in the blade to US sabers. With variring amounts of roughness to the finish of the sword and scabbard ( Un pollished blades, exposed file and grind marks , etc)

The Dog River I am defarbing reflects this. They are a little heavier than the US sabers, and are a little more crude in finish.

For now, I am focusing on CS swords (and possibly some CS sword Bayonets with brass ring adapters for M1841 Mississippi rifles)

I would suggest for those wanting a good US saber, to either look for an Ordinance Park repop, or get ahold of an original that needs the grip to be re-wraped and wired.

I can do this work as well as I have restored grips on swords.

I will see about re posting this in the Cav Forum

Feel free to call me with any questions regarding the Dog River sword

All the best

Don S

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

The first Test Model is on hold pending payment.

I am looking forward to making a couple more of these

Don S

[J.H.Berger]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Don, how does the repro compare to originals in terms of weight and balance?
Are the blades tempered, if not do you temper them?

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Don, how does the repro compare to originals in terms of weight and balance?
Are the blades tempered, if not do you temper them?

Hi Jan,

These are comarable to some the original "Dog River" Sabers in temper, ballance and weight. These are blade heavy, as they are CS copies of the US M1840 Sabre "The Wrist Breaker" which is a blade heavy sabre.

I leave the factory temper of the sword as they come to me, as it is simmilar or the same as some of the originals I have handled. I do the de farb work as stated at the bginning for the thread.

The result is a correct type of common CS sabre that is indicative of CS manufactureing durring the war, with a real sence of the Southern war effort to mass produce weapons as quicly as possible, to meet the needs of their army. Which resulted in a function weapon with out refinements & pollish. Much like the Homespun uniforms that were produced, they were Military looking but simple, sturdy & serviceable.

I wanted to produce a saber that would definatly whistle "dixie", showing properly a view of Confederate manufacture so vital to the South & that is vrey lacking in this area of living history.


All the best

Don S

[Tom Craig]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Don,

Jan asks a good question regarding the weight and balance. The M1840 is a "heavy" sabre, and is somewhat "blade heavy" as you state, but virtually all the repro's I have handled have been far too heavy in both respects. With the work you are doing are you able to reduce the weight of the blade at all, or does it retain its weight and relative lack of balance? The question isn't a dig at your work...you can only go so far in making a sow's ear into a silk purse after all.

Keep up the good work!
Take care,
Tom Craig

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Hi Tom,

Thanks, Jan does raise a good question, I agree. I was not taking offence at it at all. Just stating what I know about the swords I have handled.

As stated in the original post, I am just reshaping some of the blade (The fuller, quillion, tip, and blade edge where needed) and leaving its original temper, Re gripping and reshaping the guard.

These are when completed, blade heavy, but consistant with the originals I have handled.

Crrently, I had not taken a whole lot of metal off the blade.

As mentioned, I work with the blade as it comes from the factory, due to it being the same as some the originals in the crude forging and temper (although some of the blades are just a little heavier, but not a whole lot). I do take some metal off the blade in the reshaping of the Fuller, Quillion, Point and Edge.

I am willing to take more off if at all possible to lighten the blade more & still keep the cost reasonable and correct (Not much wiggle room here as it already takes me 5-6 hours per sword to do the work completly by hand as it was originally).

All the best

Don S

[J.H.Berger]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

I would really like to know how they were made back then. I know that in Solingen the blades were sometimes rolled. If forged it was done in a die. It would be a great thing if the collegues ( yes I am a blacksmith by trade;-)) in India could do theํr blades in a more authentic = lightweight manner using high carbon steel for them.
It is a hard thing grindinig out the fuller correctly and taking care not to overheat it and taking hardness out of it that way.
Don, in case you ever want to do some forging and need tips, let me know:):):)

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Hi Jan,

I absolutly agree with you . I would love to see the quality control in India and Pakistan get better when it comes to blades.

I will definately email you regarding forging. I am thinking of eventually setting up a small forge by my shed to learn this craft & by attending classes in Camp Verde :)

As far as how the Dog River type swords were made originally in the South durring the war. It depended on the manufacturers facilities and experience, and or machinery. Some original swords are not much better than the India swords being banged out on an anvil. Being poorly temperd and hastilly hand forged.

Others are extremely well made my makers, that either made knives pre war, or were implement manufacturers, using more standard methods. Utilizing machinery & skilled had forging techniques, knowing their craft.

It is simmilar to CS Colt type pistols.

On one hand you have Dance Brothers who used a smallting building mainly working with rough castings and hand fileing the pistol parts to finish & hand assembly. On the other you have larger factorys like Leach & Rigdon who had machinery and more labor to make more and cosistant quality pistols.


Albaugh's book on CS Swords is a good reference. If I remember correctly, he covers some of the processes involved in some of the swords.



Confederate Sword and Arms manufacture is definately a neat area of study

All the best

Don

[J.H.Berger]

Re: New Product R&D for TMDCO!!!

Don,
If you want to learn more about blacksmithing drive to Santa Fe. In the Industrial Road you should find Helmut Hillenkamp or Peter Joseph, gee if they are still there it has been 10 years now since last I have been there. Besides that if Frank Turley is still givings courses try to attand one! He is a great teacher with lots of period knowledge.
Besides that the ABANA will be able to give you more info.
If you need good reference books let me know. There are plenty on the market suitable for your project.