Vendor feedback discussions in general

[DougCooper]

Dovetailing on the various threads, maybe we ought to discuss the entire concept of vendor/customer and how the AC and other fora treat the subject.

First and foremost, I think most of us can agree that it's a business, and the vendors owe us a consistent customer service model which includes good communication, reasonably accurate delivery estimates, reasonable payment options and shipment notification. We owe the vendors civility, patience and good feedback...in private!

The problem is that both parties often don't treat it like a business (especially the customers), and a disfunctional symbiotic public relationship is set up that eventually drives many high quality vendors out of the hobby...oops, there is that word again - hobby. There in lies the problem. For us it is a hobby, for many vendors, it is their life.

Like the rest of the hobby, the vendor business has migrated on to the internet with predictable results. The free market used to be the engine of success for a vendor - now more and more it is public on-line reputation that rules.

Some examples: What other specialty business out there allows a rival vendor to openly criticize other vendors in front of the customers, as happened over on another forum (but since stopped) or allows a free for all between vendor and customers, like over here on the AC? The resultant damage from these ill considered practices has hurt the reputation of some good folks, directly effecting their ability to feed their families.

Personally, I think the entire public vendor feedback loop in such a small specialty business is too controversial to continue. I favor allowing the free market to once again decide the winners and losers in this cottage industry, instead of heresay and innuendo wrapped around some real concerns. If you have a problem with a vendor, deal with it yourself. If you have a problem with a private sale with a member on this forum, then the forum can get involved, but in private.

Keep the Approved Vendor list (a very good tool) but no more public flogging of vendors, approved or otherwise. I don't care if a million e-mails fly around on the subject, but lets stop airing it in public.

These guys and gals aren't giant corporations like Coke, Pepsi and Sears, they are men and women we all know. Let the free market work - high quality and good customer service will win out in the end.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

Doug,
I disagree with not publicly warning fellow members of this small hobby of unprofessional dealings with a particular vendor. Vendors no doubt share with other vendors poor customer information, so what is good for the goose, well, you know the rest.

[DougCooper]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

Doug,
I disagree with not publicly warning fellow members of this small hobby of unprofessional dealings with a particular vendor. Vendors no doubt share with other vendors poor customer information, so what is good for the goose, well, you know the rest.

But the vendors don't do it in public - can you imagine the outcry if they did?

Let the free market work, and use the Approved Vendor list. If enough private complaints are received on a particular Approved vendor, said vendor could be removed by a committee of the mods, with an explanation. All good vendors have (or should have if growing their biz is a goal) an interest in becoming an Approved Vendor...and in remaining on the list in good standing.

I just want to stop the public food fights. I suspect that some very good vendors don't sign up simply because of the public feedback aspect.

[paulcalloway]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

We do attempt to help folks resolve things privately - but we're going to get criticized whatever way we do this... if we protect a vendor from public criticism and if we don't.

I've been mulling over a plan however to allow users to submit vendor problems, or even customer problems, via the Help Desk folder and the AC Admin can attempt to help resolve disputes before they go public.

I really don't think we want to involve moderators or the focus group in more of this then necessary. There's a limit to what we can do here - Doug you were a moderator for 24 hours or so, I would think you can appreciate that.

[DougCooper]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

We do attempt to help folks resolve things privately - but we're going to get criticized whatever way we do this... if we protect a vendor from public criticism and if we don't.

I've been mulling over a plan however to allow users to submit vendor problems, or even customer problems, via the Help Desk folder and the AC Admin can attempt to help resolve disputes before they go public.

I really don't think we want to involve moderators or the focus group in more of this then necessary. There's a limit to what we can do here - Doug you were a moderator for 24 hours or so, I would think you can appreciate that.

I do appreciate that Paul, and in a perfect world you guys would not have to do anything beyond maintaining the list. Its a slippery slope. Your new initiatives are excellent and that ought to be enough. Let the market work.

[Ross L. Lamoreaux]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

Doug and Pat both have valid points. I think that we should all recognize that in this end of the hobby, the craftsmen who make decent items come in differing classes of business. I think they are defined as follows:
1. The full-time purveyor. He or she has been doing this for years, feeds the family full time off the results, and has worked at that field perfecting the craft, if not the business mannerisms for several years. This grouping is small in the scheme of things, as few of our high-end repro vendors are completely full time.
2. The full-to-part-time vendor. This is one of the largest classes of people. They have been reenacting for years, make incredible stuff , but probably work other careers or second jobs to tide things over between events or orders. They started by making quality things for themselves and pards, and then were convinced they should create a business. Some of them are great business people, and others are still working on the business model.
3. The part-time hobbyist/craftsmen. Many of these people also make great stuff, but haven't evolved beyond the making stuff for themselves and close pards grouping, and aren't quite ready to make it a business yet. There are still quite a few of those folks around this end of the hobby, but we've all seen them come and go. Many of us remember the days that this group was the only way to go to have the really nappy cool stuff. You had to run in packs and groups with skills.
Luckily, we have many, many more options today when it comes to quality procurement. We all have to remember just where a particular vendor comes in on the above list and act accordingly. We have more clout with #1's, as they have to rely completely on their dealings , and have the most at stake. #2's are just as important, but may care a little less with people being critical. #3's are perfectly happy sometimes just to make a little gas money for events and seeing their stuff in the field with their pards.
I think that a happy medium of what Doug and Pat say is necessary. I believe that it is vital to use this and other forums to help others in their decisions as to who to purchase from, but without the venom that has happened as of late. I, for one, have been blessed with several people on this forum saying nice things about what I make, and has helped me in spades at times when I could use it the most. I am blessed in that respect. However, as the old saying goes, "one oh sh## can wipe out a hudred atta-boys". All it takes is one person with a keyboard to ruin a business today, so when being critical, lets take that into account. These forums are double edged swords and can be used for good and evil, so to speak. I am all for full disclosure and discussion about both approved vendors as well as other vendors, and I have a respect for all people who choose to create better reproductions, do more research, and work on their business practices, just as I appreciate the person who purchases these goods and services. I am both on this forum.

[coastaltrash]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

Doug,
No, you're right, they do it among themselves (vendors) in private email or in their portion of the discussion forum. And we (CUSTOMERS) are free to comment in the open. Think of the people who have burned individuals here, in some cases it was not a known problem until it was stated in public that this vendor did this etc. Lukas Berg and Casey Osgood come directly to mind, but the example is not limited to them.

In a hobby where we are all critics of everything, from events to impressions, I say they are fair game, just like I am fair game everytime I host something.

[tmattimore]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

Here is one to consider. What if the item in dispute is a Rev war shoe or a one off Hungarian WW2 boot. is the A.C. the place to bring the complaints to?It happened to me. After 18 years of doing this full time can one buyer hunt me down on the net and sully my name where ever it is found?
Pat in all the years I have done this not once have I known vendors to discuss individuals except for the ones who are trying to burn bogus credit cards or running the Nigerian export scam etc. Occasionaly a comment such as he is a pain in the butt might pass but never details.
Tom

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

Hallo!

IMHO, in many ways this is a Damned If You Do, and Damned If You Don't situation.

Once Upon a Time, I worked as what best be described as a "Customer Relations Manager" for a large metropolitan county office with 3,500 employees and 265,000 direct "customers/consumers/clients/patients, etc.- administratively designing, implementing, and monitoring administrative and employee service delivery systems in the "onion model" of "publics."

The "Complaint Department" handled 1,000-1,200 "customer complaints" a year, or roughly 12,000-14,000 plus complaints from a population of 265,000. The "percentage" of people with problems was considered by the elected county officials to be "minimal" and not worthy of corrective action

However, if one's "complaint" was one of the 14,000, it was a very real different perception and reality.

IMHO, the "problem(s)" of customer with vendor is not always best worked out on a board or forum where the filters of both customer and vendor are often highly subjective and prone to selective memory. Not to mention direct manipulation, ommission, distortion, and at time outright falsehoods in selecting "I said" "He said" snippets to the point RARELY is a "full and unbiased," subjective," "emotionless" Full History shared in the Kangaroo Courts or Drum Head Courts of boards/fora.

Not to mention a tendency of some folks to read a frustrated, emotional anti-vendor post and run with noose in hand looking for the nearest tree.

I would like to see bad business practices, bad vendor practices, as well as bad customer practices aired and resolved. And I also that the Glowing Screen in the form of boards and fora have become the previous "generation's" Word of Mouth that can reach out to accurately and fairly warn folks of not only scams, "bad" vendors, but also good vendors who have temporarily or permanently fallen into sundry crisises whether business model, suppliers, work, family, personal, etc., etc. (I go "back" to the David Terrant problems of the late '90's with money given and goods never received.)

BUT, I do not believe that a board or a forum works well in that capacity. And as a result, and the power to manipulate and harm good solod vendors/makers FIRST while the details and full truths may never be aired late or often not at all- requires a special mechanism and relationships between "somebody" and the vendors/makers.
I applaud Paul & Company for their assistance and interventions, and their trying to reason things out and broker a Good Outcome for all concerned. But, I think they will burn out fairly quick....

So I am torn. I would like to know in advance to avoid the "David Terrants" of our Hobby, but I just do not see ANYONE having the time, energy, and relationships with the multitude of vendors/makers to do a good job and eliminate the potential for Kangaroo and Drum Head Courts hurting the innocent and the guilty.

Others' mileage will vary..

Curt

[cgoser]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

I don't understand the censure of feedback, self-imposed or otherwise, with vendors who agree to provide service and product for monetary compensation regardless the size of the business.

As a kid mowing lawns, I had more work than I could keep up with. This was primarily due to three things; the quality of work, service, and my price compared to other alternatives, ie. professional lawn services. I never advertised. All my business came through word of mouth...customers telling other customers. Nobody would go and tell people "You should think of hiring this kid. He doesn't show up on time and does a crappy job, but he tries real hard." You get the picture.

I'm also reminded of the story of Thos. Moser Cabinetmakers. Thomas Moser was a professor who left an academic career of more than ten years. He started making finely crafted furniture as a hobby. He made a few pieces for his family. A few friends offered money for some pieces. The living room turned into a show room. He made the leap from few pieces in his spare time to working full time. Today he runs one of the most successful cottage industry furniture businesses in the country. His service record is impeccable. He employs over 65 people that design, assemble, andfinish all of his furniture by hand. He commands over $5000 for a dininig room table and that's the low end. Not your average furniture store. The stuff is highly detailed and finely crafted. You can't get it just anywhere. There is no way he could have ever continued his success if his quality control and business practices were not top notch.

The vendors in our hobby are not unlike Thomas Moser. Because of the nature of our hobby, many of us know the vendors personally or are at least acquainted with someone who does. There is a reason why people tell you don't do business with friends or family. You never want to treat your friends and family the way you would a providor who did not give you top notch service. Nor do you want to see a friend or vendor in our hobby develop a bad reputation, especially if you know them.

I don't believe we should suggest censure of those that believe they have been wronged by a vendor. I think we should be mature enough to understand the nature of our environment and handle our problems professionally when called upon and at least with a modicum of common courtesy. I also expect that as an adult, I can read between the lines and understand when somebody is simply venting in an unwarranted manner. However, if I see more than a reasonable amount of people making the same complaints I can monitor a trend and draw my own conclusions. They are my conclusions to draw and I would like to make them with as much open information as possible.

Respectfully,
Clay Goser

[Milliron]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

The problem here is that a burned consumer has no effective recourse EXCEPT to come to this board. Doug, you seem to be assuming that those parties who complained publicly did it hastily or out of impetuosity-- I know that is not the case. If what you are suggesting is that those folks who do genuinely get burned should suck up their two or three hundred bucks and keep mum so X vendor can continue producing for the good of the hobby, feel free to pitch in and send a check along.

I absolutely don't advocate the public hanging of vendors. However this board specifically promotes vendors, and much good business is to be had as a result. However, if you fail to live up to your end of things, it should not come as a surprise that all those good vibrations should go sour. If you rely on this hobby for your livelihood, then you better take good care of it. If you don't, you know whose fault that is? Yours.

I think this board has been pretty darned judicious in preventing someone's rep from being slammed unnecessarily. All vendors theoretically know that bad business practices can result in bad publicity on this board, and that that's a bad thing. However, it doesn't happen--hardly ever. It is equally clear to me from discussions both on and off this board that some vendors pretty much assume the buying public needs them more than they need the buying public. That thinking is exactly how we got to this point. In my way of thinking this discussion, albeit unpleasant at times, cleared some much needed air. I will tell you that this thread singlehandedly caused one item I had been waiting on (prepaid, mind you) for more than a year, to magically arrive on my doorstep yesterday. I promise you it was no coincidence. So for my part, I say thank you very much for that discussion. No, I feel that feedback like this, though ugly and maybe a little traumatic, is a fair counter-balance to the risk the average buyer takes in transacting business in this manner.

[DougCooper]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

The problem here is that a burned consumer has no effective recourse EXCEPT to come to this board. Doug, you seem to be assuming that those parties who complained publicly did it hastily or out of impetuosity-- I know that is not the case. If what you are suggesting is that those folks who do genuinely get burned should suck up their two or three hundred bucks and keep mum so X vendor can continue producing for the good of the hobby, feel free to pitch in and send a check along.

I absolutely don't advocate the public hanging of vendors. However this board specifically promotes vendors, and much good business is to be had as a result. However, if you fail to live up to your end of things, it should not come as a surprise that all those good vibrations should go sour. If you rely on this hobby for your livelihood, then you better take good care of it. If you don't, you know whose fault that is? Yours.

I think this board has been pretty darned judicious in preventing someone's rep from being slammed unnecessarily. All vendors theoretically know that bad business practices can result in bad publicity on this board, and that that's a bad thing. However, it doesn't happen--hardly ever. It is equally clear to me from discussions both on and off this board that some vendors pretty much assume the buying public needs them more than they need the buying public. That thinking is exactly how we got to this point. In my way of thinking this discussion, albeit unpleasant at times, cleared some much needed air. I will tell you that this thread singlehandedly caused one item I had been waiting on (prepaid, mind you) for more than a year, to magically arrive on my doorstep yesterday. I promise you it was no coincidence. So for my part, I say thank you very much for that discussion. No, I feel that feedback like this, though ugly and maybe a little traumatic, is a fair counter-balance to the risk the average buyer takes in transacting business in this manner.

Great responses everyone. Bob, actually I think most folks do take the time to try and resolve things in private. I agree with everything you say here and understand that we have both impatient and unreasonable customers, as well as vendors whose business practices leave much to be desired. My greatest concern remains that the small group of folks on this forum represent the main market for the best vendors, and I would rather err on the side of working things out in private than risk one disgruntled customer (all vendors have them) ruining the reputation of someone who otherwise does a great job. But we can't just allow positive feedback with no negative.

The warning posts on folks like Berg and Osgood are best sent to Paul, etc and then Paul can get involved at the level needed - just like has been performed. Having your access denied to this market is the ultimate penalty and entirely appropriate for folks like that. Again I know this is extra work for the mods, but barring creation of a vendor czar, is the best solution for the collective. We can do our part here by gathering more info before sending it to Paul. Something on the order of "Anyone having business dealings with vendor X, please contact me offline."

Now, perhaps a good solution for problems with the Approved Vendors might be something like the feedback loop Paul has already put in place for I traders (a GREAT idea). The customers can provide negative or positive feedback on a particular vendor transaction that potential customers can scan as members of the board. At some point enough negative feedback could ultimately effect the vendor's status on the Approved Vendor list. As always the devil is in the details here but at least we would not have the "he said, she said" forum fights, where most of the damage can be done. Encouraging positive feedback when it occurs is the biggest Achilles Heel to this idea, as folks tend to provide feedback more when disatisfied.

Anyway, good discussion - thanks to all for weighing in.

[john duffer]

Re: Vendor feedback discussions in general

I understand the frustration some folks may feel but think it better to work things out in private if at all possible. For every genuine vendor horror story I see on forums I see half a dozen that strike me as being in the vein of: 'It's been a week and I emailed yesterday and didn't hear anything should I call the police'. In recent cases there was a shoe issue where the misused buyer mentioned several times how much they needed their money for bills, forgetting that the money wouldn't have been around if they had kept the item. I took this as buyers remorse at the expense of the vendor. Another quite nasty attack ended up with an apology but it was sort of the front page story on a child rapist with a retraction printed later on page 30. If a public forum is the only way to get justice then go for it but think it through first and, in any case, drop the 'you've messed with the wrong guy/gal this time' personal attacks.