CS Jackets

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: CS Jackets

Hi,

But by 1864, the 4-button infantry shell jacket and the Tait jacket were being heavily used in this theater of war. Basically I would recomend:

1861= Battle shirt or commutation jacket
1862= Commutation jacket, frock coat, Richmond Depot shell I or II, or civilian sack coat
1863= Richmond Depot shell II, Tait jacket, civilian sack coat, commutation jacket, or 4 button infantry shell jacket
1864-1865= Richmond Depot shell jacket II or III, Tait jacket, civilian sack coat, or 4 button infantry shell jacket
Just my 2 cents.

[Mcouioui]

Re: CS Jackets

I always have a doubt for Tait jacket in 63, but for the rest I agree. ;)
Just my 2 cents.

[Haversack]

Re: CS Jackets

Thanks,I will include all of this in the revision of the guidelines and the bettering of my own impression.

[csuniforms]

Re: CS Jackets-What to wear? When?

Hello, Your question on what is a good CS clothing article to wear for all occasions or mid-war is not easy to answer, especially to those who study Confederate clothing. You guys are correct in stating that many of the descripti0ns of Confederates that I have discovered describe that a mixture of civilian and military was very common. By stating "common", is the depiction most often used by eyewitnesses who commented on large groups of Confederate prisoners or troops seen. That is not saying that RD'2's or Georgia cottons, Columbus or Atlanta Depots, North Carolina jackets, or South Carolina frocks are not seen in the Eastern or Western theatre ranks appropriately.
From research if "I" were going to protray a Eastern soldier for Spring 1863, Army of Northern Virginia, and wanted to fall in with any authentic group of historians, I would choose a para military civilian blouse in gray jeans with low collar and pockets, a pair of either civilian or Richmond Depot issue jeans trousers. A good Confederate kepi or hat based on an original, any style with or without a blue band, a really nice civilian handsewn shirt of osnanburg or cotton print. a pair of Confederate brogans or English shoes. An issue CS Depot haversack based on an original, or good Federal haversack and canteen or CS drum your choice, a Federal blanket, or English imported blanket, Mixed Federal and CS accoutrements, based on originals, and a good Federal knapsack or CS manufactured knapsack. You can use your RE2 or frock if you want.

For Western Spring 1863, the same civilian blouse in butternut or brown jeans, a good CS civilian shirt, handsewn etc. brown civilian trousers, add a black stripe for effect. In the West a good homemade generic jacket, based on either a photo or original can be substituted, a good black hat based on photo or original from that theatre, hat can be a Federal issue, mixed Federal and CS accoutrements, Confederate brogans or half boots, even a good canvas shoe here would stand out.
We could see some English accoutrements here too. Missouri or Kentucky Brigade would be seen more in Western Depot clothing, Columbus, Atlanta trousers, and North Carolina jackets could be seen too in the ranks.

For both Armies the Spring of 1863 saw tons of donated clothing again come through to the ranks. Anything para-military would have been worn. Lots of stuff out of Georgia and North Carolina. Lots of clothing drives for blankets and socks.--

If your group does not represent a particular Regiment or Brigade East or West, and consider yourself either generic Eastern or Western impressionists, you make the choice on Columbus Depots or RD'2's and trousers--

Do you have a headache yet?

Tom Arliskas
Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown

[Haversack]

Re: CS Jackets

Thank you very much sir,your post gave me a lot of help.Once again,thank you all very much.

[Jeff Dugdale]

Re: CS Jackets

I've got to disagree with many of the above posters.They seem to place too much emphasis on civilian clothing on Eastern Theatre Confederates,when in fact the opposite was true.Take a good,close look at the many Gettysburg photos.The bulk of the Confederates depicted are wearing RD11s.Some with brass buttons,some wood.

[JimConley]

Re: CS Jackets

Jeff,
I would imagine you have more references than only those photographs to base this upon?

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: CS Jackets

The proportion of issue jackets was far greater than civilian jackets but you'd have to be crazy to say that there weren't a ton of civilian coats in the ranks of the ANV.

[Jeff Dugdale]

Re: CS Jackets

Jim...' would imagine you have more references than only those photographs to base this upon?.'

27thNCdrummer....'The proportion of issue jackets was far greater than civilian jackets but you'd have to be crazy to say that there weren't a ton of civilian coats in the ranks of the ANV.'

There are literally thousands of references to go at.Most have been mulled over on this forum over the years and I really do not want to go over them again.My main point is this quartermaster records show huge issues to Lee's troops from late Fall 1862 onwards.The soldiers talk of these issues in their memoirs.Federal soldiers detailed these uniforms in their letters and most of all the numerous photos show these.Even the Antietam series of photos (at a time when Lee's Army were alledgedly at their most ragged), show Confederate soldiers in short servicable jackets (some RD11s amongst them)or sack coats.Pants are without holes or patches.Some have branch of service stripes.Not exactly the rag-tag army we have been led to believe.Photos after this date show a more uniformed army.In the many photo series you really are hard pushed to find any civilian attire.The Gettysburg series shows RD11s almost exclusively.The Whitehouse landing scene shows mostly RD11s,plus a sack and some frocks.The Harris Farm views show NC issue jackets and RD 111s.The Petersburg photos show mainly RD11s,111s ,Taits and NC issues.The Five Forks photo clearly shows RD11s abnd 111s and the Richmond photos are the same. After many years of studying these photos I have yet to find any evidence of any widespread use of civilian items in the ANV.

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: CS Jackets

Could you post the Harris Farm views as I don' think I've seen those. Also, what Petersburg photos show NC Depot Jackets? I would love to take a look at those views as well.

[JimConley]

My main point is this quartermaster records show huge issues to Lee's troops from late Fall 1862 onwards.

Jeff,
I agree with you that during the mid-War period, uniformity amongst Confederate soldiers was noticed as the production of Government manufactured uniforms really took off and were distributed in large quantities. And, photographs certainly show that. However, I believe that may have begun later than you have said.

I also study original photographs quite often and am very appreciative that we have so many to examine. Photographs are a great way to visually learn and give us ideas for what our impressions should mimic. However, I also take into account the fact that a grouping of Confederates photographed, at a particular battle or campaign during specific periods of the War, are only a small segment of an army larger than any of us have ever seen and that what those fellows in a photo were wearing might have differed greatly from the company or the regiment they were alongside.

I am not arguing an emphasis on civilian clothing, however I think that at least in the Gettysburg campaign (as the point where we have started this conversation), there was quite a mixture of uniforms. I also believe that production of Government uniforms was not at the point where they were as largely present as I understand you to claim on that particular campaign.


From: Arliskas, Thomas M. Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown: Notes on Confederate Uniforms. (Gettysburg, PA: Tomas Publications, 2006). Pages 55-58.

The abolishment of the commutation law, state embargoes, the Second Appeal, and public outrage over the ragged and barefooted armies seen in the fall of 1862 would have a direct effect on the field appearance of the mid-War Confederate soldier. For the spring of 1863, it would be again an army in mixed clothing.

Again largely provided for by donations, Lee’s veterans presented a military, but un-uniform appearance:
‘A group of some 200 prisoners, captured in the recent battles of the Rappahannock, [Fredericksburg] were the most miserable looking lot I ever saw. Like Jacob’s coat of many colors, no two garments were alike being of every imaginable pattern and mostly of gray and brown mixture.’

At the Battle of Chancellorsville in May 1863, a wounded Yankee soldier watched as the men of Ramseur’s Brigade, consisting of the 2nd, 4th, 14th and 30th North Carolina Regiments:
‘…advanced to where [he and other] wounded men were lying. They made a soldierly appearance, though not a handsome appearance, as no two uniforms were exactly alike in style or color or material.’

Pender’s Division, observed near Berryville, Virginia, in June 1863 had ‘serviceable clothing, as far as their boots, but there is the usual utter absence of uniformity as to color and shape of their garments and hats, gray of all shades, and brown clothing with felt hats predominate.’

…C.S. Lieutenant-General Jubal A. Early, who wrote just prior to the invasion that in his division of 7,226 men:
‘…A like deficiency existed in regard to the equipment of the men in other respects, the supply of clothing, blankets, etc., being very limited.’

An Agent for the Union Sanitary Commission was able to sneak into one of Ewell’s camps near York, Pennsylvania, and commented that the Rebels…
‘…dress was a wretched mixture of all cuts and colors.’

After Pickett’s charge on July 3, a Northern reporter wrote that the Confederate prisoners, ‘were poorly clothed in a variety of uniforms, a dingy gray color prevailing, some wore jackets, others gray skirted coats trimmed on collars and sleeves.’

Again, as in the previous two winters of the War, hard campaigning and marching had reduced the army to rags and bare-feet. One member of the 21st Virginia Infantry described the Army of Northern Virginia as:
‘in a sad plight as to clothing.’

The general consensus among C.S. uniform researchers is that starting in mid-1863, the Confederate armies, having to reply more on the Quartermaster Department, or better yet, the Quartermaster-General so ordered to supply uniforms to every soldier, began to appear on some battlefields all in the same uniform. The reason: a Quartermaster Department that through a thorough reorganization and a greater reliance on imports, was producing thousands of new uniforms every month in different depots set up all over the South.

Per this last quote, I believe that uniformity among Confederate armies, at least in the case of the ANV, began in large part just after the Gettysburg campaign. Directly past the entries about spring 1863 and Gettysburg in Arliskas' work is where he provides accounts and information of heavier Government distribution of clothing. It is not until the ANV returns from Pennsylvania that observations of notably similar clad Confederates (in Government threads) pop up. But, it starts almost immediately upon their return, as noted by William Fletcher.

See: Fletcher, William A. Rebel Private Front and Rear: Memoirs of a Confederate Soldier. (New York, New York: Meridian, 1997). Page 88.

Just after crossing the Potomac and the retreat from Gettysburg:

We remained here several days, the most of the time sitting, or lying down, patching up. Here we were soon supplied with rations and the most needy--shoes and clothes.

[Jeff Dugdale]

Re: CS Jackets

Jim,
Excellent response,but I must make a few points here.You quote copiously from Thomas Arliskas's book which is fine.( I own a copy too).You must consider the fact that he wrote this work to put over his viewpoint on Confederate uniforms (or lack of).But they are his views and they tend to be slanted towards non-uniformity.I do not take that opinion.For every quote on non-uniformity there is a quote on full uniformity out there.When Thomas shows a photo of two soldiers,one in uniform,one not.I see a soldier in uniform and a civilian in civilian clothes(could easily be a relative).Thomas and I spent a couple of weeks debating this a year or so ago on this forum.Everyone is entitled to their opinion I say.But to your points...

'The abolishment of the commutation law, state embargoes, the Second Appeal, and public outrage over the ragged and barefooted armies seen in the fall of 1862 would have a direct effect on the field appearance of the mid-War Confederate soldier. For the spring of 1863, it would be again an army in mixed clothing.'

This was purely Tom's opinion

' Again largely provided for by donations, Lee’s veterans presented a military, but un-uniform appearance:
A group of some 200 prisoners, captured in the recent battles of the Rappahannock, [Fredericksburg] were the most miserable looking lot I ever saw. Like Jacob’s coat of many colors, no two garments were alike being of every imaginable pattern and mostly of gray and brown mixture.’

In the latter stages of the Second World war German soldiers presented the same appearance.It doesn't mean to say they weren't in uniform.The uniforms described here would have included shells,sacks and frockcoats,some faded,some not.

'At the Battle of Chancellorsville in May 1863, a wounded Yankee soldier watched as the men of Ramseur’s Brigade, consisting of the 2nd, 4th, 14th and 30th North Carolina Regiments:
advanced to where [he and other] wounded men were lying. They made a soldierly appearance, though not a handsome appearance, as no two uniforms were exactly alike in style or color or material.’

They made a soldierly appearance.Period.With these being NC soldiers their uniforms may well have included NC sacks and varying NC shells as well as RDs.Some faded some not.Some in jeancloth,others in wool.(no two uniforms were exactly alike in style or color or material).

'Pender’s Division, observed near Berryville, Virginia, in June 1863 had ‘serviceable clothing, as far as their boots, but there is the usual utter absence of uniformity as to color and shape of their garments and hats, gray of all shades, and brown clothing with felt hats predominate.’

Depot clothing turned brown due to exposure to sunlight.Again various styles are mentioned .As it was Pender's Division comprising North Carolina,South Carolina and Georgia troops there would certainly have been a mixture of shell jackets and frockcoats as NC provided shells and both SC and Georgia issued frockcoats well into 1863.No mention of civilian clothing though.

'…C.S. Lieutenant-General Jubal A. Early, who wrote just prior to the invasion that in his division of 7,226 men:A like deficiency existed in regard to the equipment of the men in other respects, the supply of clothing, blankets, etc., being very limited.’

He's only expressing what every other General in history has thought prior to campaigning.

'An Agent for the Union Sanitary Commission was able to sneak into one of Ewell’s camps near York, Pennsylvania, and commented that the Rebels…
dress was a wretched mixture of all cuts and colors.’

See my points above.No civilian attire mentioned.

'After Pickett’s charge on July 3, a Northern reporter wrote that the Confederate prisoners, ‘were poorly clothed in a variety of uniforms, a dingy gray color prevailing, some wore jackets, others gray skirted coats trimmed on collars and sleeves.’

See above.No civilian attire mentioned.

'Again, as in the previous two winters of the War, hard campaigning and marching had reduced the army to rags and bare-feet. One member of the 21st Virginia Infantry described the Army of Northern Virginia as:
‘in a sad plight as to clothing.’

This is a typical army after a hard campaign.Union forces after Antietam found themselves in the same predicament.

'The general consensus among C.S. uniform researchers is that starting in mid-1863, the Confederate armies, having to reply more on the Quartermaster Department, or better yet, the Quartermaster-General so ordered to supply uniforms to every soldier, began to appear on some battlefields all in the same uniform. The reason: a Quartermaster Department that through a thorough reorganization and a greater reliance on imports, was producing thousands of new uniforms every month in different depots set up all over the South. '

My own research has shown this to be certainly true of Western Confederates but not of Easterners,which began to recieve large supplies of clothing in Spring.The Stonewall Brigade were issued English cloth uniforms in May of 1863,for example.

'We remained here several days, the most of the time sitting, or lying down, patching up. Here we were soon supplied with rations and the most needy--shoes and clothes'


Again,a typical army after a hard campaign.

As to the photos that I mentioned.Have a close look.The Gettysburg series shows the Confederates wearing RD11s,almost to a man.But as you say the Gettysbug images show only two or three units.But what of the Antietam series?These images depict soldiers all over the Battlefield from numerous units and all are clad in uniforms.(mainly plain shelljackets)There is no civilian attire.No holes in pants and only one individual barefooted.As I stated in my earlier post...'not exactly the rag-tag Army that some would have us believe they were.
Jeff

[27thNCdrummer]

Re: CS Jackets

I think that we really should have a lot more issue jackets in the ranks but I think it would add a bit to have one or two guys wearing civilian jackets. If you take a look at the photo of Confederate cavalry captured at Brandy Station, I think it was, there is an extreme amount of civilian clothing in there ranks. The photo can be seen over in the CW photos section posted by Olemissrebel. Then again this is Confederate cavalry we're talking about:wink_smil.

[Jeff Dugdale]

Re: CS Jackets

27thNCdrummer,
Yes I'm aquainted with this photo.It seems to me that it could depict one of two things .The first is a cavalry unit with two thirds dressed in identical uniforms and the other third in purely civilian clothes ,with no mixing of the two,which I find highly unlikely;or it depicts a group of Confederate cavalrymen all in identical uniforms with a group of local civilians or dignitaries who have been invited to stand in with them.This is confirmed to me by the woman stood in the ranks on the left (next to the tall man in the dark frockcoat and white pants).

[csuniforms]

Re: CS Jackets-Not an Opinion

Hello, I remember having this conversation some time ago on the Army of Tennessee during the Atlanta Campaign and Nashville. Your opinion is that you feel that the two Armies were more uniformly dressed, and you did have some eyewitness descriptions that stated the Army of Tennessee seemed well dressed to the viewer.
My book is not my "opinion"My book is a presentation of eyewitness descriptions of people who actually saw Confederates and made comments about there appearance and uniforms. If these descriptions stated that they viewed Confederate troops in the same uniforms and jackets I would have had to print it that way, but that is not what they saw. I stated that in 1863 you started to see more uniformed troops in the ranks, and the Fall of 1863 was the time you saw whole Brigades uniformed the same.
I would agree for an impression for mid-1863 you would see a lot of QM items, but you would also see civilian and homemade uniforms and quartermaster issued purchased homemade garments in the same Company and Regiment.

Tom Arliskas
Cadet Gray and Butternut Brown