Unblueing an enfield rifle?

[JCbluegrassrifles]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

Dusty,
This is an authentic discussion board. If Clark has seen both blued and de-blued Enfields at authentic events, surely those that have chosen how to carry their rifle asked the same questions and made their decision based on research. So why question his response? As the AC NCO, you of all people should know that being cynical helps no one. Clark was merely putting his two cents in.

[Bill Cross]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

The Laurel Mountain Forge self-degreasing bluing agent is the way to go. I tried the Brownell's version and it's too damn much work. You have to degrease all the time, especially if you acidentally touch the barrel with your fingers (easy when using latex gloves that often shred from friction or possibly because of the corrosives in the materials). I stripped off the bluing on mine after the first session produced an inferior look, then reblued with the LMF product and am very pleased with the results.

[GrumpyDave]

Try this article...

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/1864/enf/enfblue.htm

I was pleasently suprised the link still worked. Good information there.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

Hallo Kameraden!

From Geoff Walden's website:

"Oct. 21, 1861, muskets were delivered to the men and this furnished another excuse for a hearty growl from the 1st Mainers. ‘Had we not been
promised a new blue uniform and Springfield muskets?’ To be sure we had the blue uniform and a good outfit in every way, ‘but look at these
Enfield muskets.’ said they, ‘with their blued barrels and wood that no man can name!’ They were not a bad weapon, however, differing little
from the Springfield, in actual efficiency, weight, length, and caliber, but far behind in point of workmanship. For a while we kept them blued,
then orders were issued to rub them bright and we kept them so ever after.'

via David Fournier, from "History of the First-Tenth-Twenty-ninth Maine Regiment," by Maj. John M. Gould; Portland, Stephen Berry, 1871, page 89. The 1st Maine had originally been issued M1855 Springfields; this reissue of Enfields occurred when it was reorganized into the 10th Maine. Gould's original journal entry covering this can be found in "The Civil War Journals of John Mead Gould, 1861-1866," edited by William B. Jordan, Jr.; Butternut and Blue, 1997, page 71; the original entry does not mention rubbing the rifles bright, which apparently happened later."

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

"Leave it Blue. Bright Enfields are way overdone, and the documentation for bright Enfields is minimal at best."

Ummm... documentation please.

Winslow Homers Prisoners to the Front, granted this is a painting, but Homer was an eye witness.
Note all three Enfields in this painting retain there original finish:


From Mr.Walden´s Website:


Here is a list of original identified Enfields, used by Confederate and Federal soldiers, that still have a dark barrel finish (never struck bright):

Federal: 25th Michigan Infantry - Pvt. Thomas Starr, Co. F. An 1862 London Armoury Co. Ltd. 3rd Model P53. Upon his discharge in 1865, Starr bought his musket and accoutrements for $6.00. The Enfield retains a deep dark patina on the iron parts. (private collection in Michigan)

7th Indiana Infantry - unknown soldier in Co. I. 1861 TOWER 3rd Model P53 by an unknown Birmingham maker. The barrel and bands have a patina of rust, with some blue extant. (private collection in Ohio)
Confederate: 3rd Model P53 made by Barnett of London - known to have been carried by a Confederate, but unidentified. Barrel shows original blue in good shape. (Museum of the Confederacy)

1861 TOWER 3rd Model P53 made by an unknown Birmingham maker - carried by a Confederate soldier named R.B. Green. Barrel shows original blue in good shape. (Museum of the Confederacy)

2nd/15th Kentucky Cavalry (Woodward's) - Pvt. G.W. Grasty. 1863 TOWER 3rd Model P53 by Thomas Turner of Birmingham. Barrel is age brown on the top surface, still blued below. (private collection in Kentucky)
(private collection in Kentucky)
38th Virginia Infantry - Pvt. George W. Newcon, Co. D. 1861 TOWER 3rd Model P53 by an unknown Birmingham maker. Exposed portion of the barrel is age brown, but the bluing remains underneath. (private collection in Virginia)(private collection in Virginia)
In addition to these, I have examined a couple of P56 Rifles with all the accepted Confederate markings (JS-anchor and engraved "lot numbers"), but with no specific soldier identification, that retained blued barrels

The Enfield with this dead Confederate, altough it may be the photographers prop, retains its blueing.



Here is a soldier from the 4th Vermont with an Enfield rifle, if you look closely at the top you can see its original finnish.



I feel untouched Enfields are very under represented in our hobby.

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

Dusty, I will never use what is seen at a reenactment as a basis of opinion. There are many images of soldiers from both sides armed with examples of both. For Christ's sake open a book, they are everywhere.

Robert, too bad I don't have a scanner, as I have a rather nice image of a Kentucky federal private hold an obviously blued Enfield, and the picture was from 1863. I need to get back over to Frankfort and get copies of pictures I once had, but have been destroyed.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

"Leave it Blue. Bright Enfields are way overdone, and the documentation for bright Enfields is minimal at best."

Ummm... documentation please.

How can I document something that I feel is overdone?

[James Brenner]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

Thanks for the account, Curt. Does anyone else know of other accounts where soldiers were ordered to take the blueing off their Enfields? It seems like it should be one of those events that soldiers would write about: an opportunity to mock the military.

[hireddutchcutthroat]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

"And that is the whole crux of the matter -- there is plenty of period evidence to show that Enfields were carried by soldiers in the field in both original blued and struck bright conditions, and no real strong evidence to show that either way was a big majority (except, of course, in certain units). Unless you are portraying one of those units, you can either leave your repro Enfield blued, or burnish it, BUT NEITHER CHOICE IS MORE AUTHENTIC THAN THE OTHER!"

Geoff Walden

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

Hallo Kameraden!

No, that is the only reference I have ever seen.

I have my own historical and research evidence, as well bias here, as there are "some" accounts that do speak to the striking bright of the factory-as-made and as-issued."

But, IMHO (beyond that documented to particular units), we should expect NOT just a handful of verbal accounts and a handful of photographs but more examples.
And, I reminded that the C.S. Ordnance Manual prohibits the practice of burnishing (yes, that is longer discussion as how Manuals are followed versus ignored).

I am also reminded of having period images of "as issued Enfields" presented to me as being "struck bright," when, in fact, it was just sunlight or bright ambient light reflecting off of the top surfaces only (when one looks at the undersides of, say, barrel bands, they are dark. Common in period exposures.)

Anyhow, I would expect to find more accounts of "armory struck bright" or "field struck bright" than what we have.

I tend to shy away from surviving "bright" originals that cannot be dismantled and checked for "color" in under areas, because there is way to know whether they were polished bright by some antique dealer or gun dealer in 1995, 1965, 1935, etc., who saw color case hardening now black and shadowy looking, and rust-blued and heat blued barrel bands now patined to brown and rust looking), and thought that making things bright would increase his profits.
I have had only six originals, and they were bright (and bright underneath). I cannot tell if that was done in 1863 or 2003.

IMHO, and harsh view, I believe there are proportionately more "bright Enfields" in the field today than were proportionately in the field during the CW.
Not because of research, documentation, or surveys from enough accounts and images to make a case for the validity and reliability of the findings for "bright." But rather because removing the Italian markings requires a "re-bluing," (and recoloring of the lock) and liquid or paste blue is both wrong and poor looking- so it is better to leave one's semi-defarbed gun bright than smuck it up with costly color case hardening, and rust-bluing, and heat bluing.
And that a "bright Enfield" looks more like a "Springfield" in units that do not specify, and allow both weapons.
And both have become part of our CW reenacting and living history culture, and entrenched.

Some even argue, "Show me the oppposite, that Enfields were blued in large numbers?"
Gott im Himmel!
They were made that way...

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Others' mileage will vary.

:-)

Curt-Heinrich Schmidt

[Clark Badgett]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

Ok now to help some out there that haven't either developed the skill to discern differences in old B&W photos, or haven't quite reached a data base of info to help in that matter. On the subject of firearms finishes there is a good method to use for determining the finish. Contrast. Look at all the pictures of Springfields, and known brightened Enfields (USCT regiments), and the contrast between wood and the metal is very noticeable. The metal is white and the wood is nearly black. This is something that is very noticeable on all muskets that were finished in "National Armory Bright." It also seems that most units kept their arms in very clean condition. Now go out and look at most Enfields. the difference between the wood and metal is not very different. Another thing that well know for fact is that Enfield bayonet sockets were blued to the base of the blade. With that in mind I will now list a very short list of some blued Enfields in period photos.

Civil War Cartridge Boxes of the Union Infantryman, Paul D. Johnson

Pg 12. 2 US soldiers with P.53 R/M. Soldier on right has barrel to the camera, and the metal is just sightly lighter than the wood. Bayonet blade is very bright in comparison to the socket and other metal.

Pg 167 barrel bands darker than bayonet blade, barrel not visable. lockplate not bright

pg 170 no musket but bayonet socket is very blued

pg 260 barrel not visable. Bayonet socket and one visable barrelband blued

pg 274 figure 160 again socket dark, and 2 band dark

pg 282 figure 165 very obviously blued

Echos of Glory CS Time/life books

pg 138 Pvt John T. Davis, blued Enfield

pg 152 James H. Parker, same

pg 203 Kennedy Palmer, 13th VA, same

Echos of Glory US Tmie/life books

pg 198 Soldier with blued enfield

pg 203 same

A Southern Boy In Blue, A Memoir of Marcus Woodcock, 9th KY Inf (USA) Kenneth W. Noe, Editor

Pg 31 Walther M. Clark circa 1863, with a very blued Enfield

I would not call this exhaustive by any stretch of the imagination, in fact only 4 books were used in about 20 minutes.

[Bill Shea]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

In the Fifth New Hampshire Regimental history on page 24 there is a reference to "burnishing arms". The passage is for November 2, 1861.

It reads, "During the whole night the men and officers were active in making preparations in the rain and mud. They cooked, and packed rations, cleaned and burnished arms and equipments."

Whether Cross issue the order or not I don't know. A fellow 5th NH member dug up the reference as I don't have a copy of the Regimental. But it has been documented that Cross considered the Enfield an inferior weapon to the Springfield. Cross went as far as to journey to Washington to get the Springfield issued to the 5th NH. In the aftermath of the Antietam action Cross resupplied the 5th from the battlefield with the Springfield.

Bill Shea

[CSA Engineer]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

There was a good post on this subject before the crash (sorry don't recall who posted it) Any how that post documented both bright and Blued Enfields. (If my memory is correct) that post doumented shipments of Enfields from England, and showed that some were Blued, and others Bright, possibly to save time in production. Although there is much speculation as to why the blueing was removed from blued Enfields, the fact remains that there are existing examples of both. And in my opinion I don't see how anyone can say that one way is "Authentic" while the other is not.


Pvt. Michael Moffett
Co. E 3rd Regiment
Confederate Engineers

[Tim Prince]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

Well here are my 2 cents. Of the two CW era P-53 that I own, one has a dark patina on the top of the barrel and very nice blue underneath. The other has a very nice OLD patina on the top and is very bright underneath. Whenever that gun was struck bright, it was a long, long time ago, although it could well have been post war.

In the ledgers of Schuyler, Hartley & Graham they list lots of Enfields being sold off after the war to other countries, like Japan. It is interesting to note that many of the entries note that the Enfields are "bright". Every lot is differentiated between being bright or blued. Now whether the guns were struck bright after the war as part of a refurbishment process by the seller or was done during the war we don't know. However, it was important enough a feature that the ledgers mention it and the guns were sorted into matching lots for sale.

[Drygoods]

Re: Unblueing an enfield rifle?

I'd vote to unblue. The blueing found on pristine examples of mid 19th century firearms was always a bright sapphire blue. No one to my knowledge, and certainly not Euroarms, replicates this.

At least bright is bright.

JP - you need to sign all of your posts with your full name - Mike Chapman