Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

[BrianHicks]

In the Uniform Regulation Changes dated 1858, do these changes specifically require the placement (ie the wearing) of the Brass Plates on the Shoulder strap for the Cartridge Bax, and the US Plate on the flap of the Cartridge box?

Where these Brass Plates required in the Uniform regulations dated prior to the 1858 Changes?

In what regulations do we find the requirement for the Enlisted men to have the Brass Plates on their accouterments?

[Sarah Belle]

Re: Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

Brian

I find refferance to one book that may give you the answer that you are looking for it is.
American Military insignia 1800 to 1851 by campbell & howell.

I did find this link to an item that really would answer your question.

https://www.biblio.com/books/149156688.html#

There are litho's shown that diplict a breast plate being worn, box plate?

Jasper Massey
Christopher Irelan
CFC

Forgot to sign off the girlfriend before I wrote this.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

Thank you, but I'm not sure that provides what I need. Most of those show the Brass Pate on the Baldric for the NCO Swords, the one wearing what appears to be a cartridge box is an NCO, and I believe that NCO's were authorized to wear an Eagle Bras Plat, but not the enlisted men with no rank.

What I need is someone with access to the actual printed regulations, who can cite the sections which state that the Brass Plates are to be worn on the accouterments by enlisted men.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

Brian,

The US Regulars have the 1857 US Army Regulations Available online...

http://www.usregulars.com/1857%20Regs/57regs_main.html

However it is not fully linked so you'll need to change pages by changing the page number in the address bar. This has all of the info on the colors and design of the uniform. One note, this manual still has a requirement for a Sky Blue Fatigue Jacket trimmed in the branch color.

The articles on other equipments are on page 451...

http://www.usregulars.com/1857%20Regs/57regs_451.html

However, it doesn't answer your questions. I was able to find the 1850 Ordnance Manual on Google Books. Its going to be awhile until I drill down to an answer, but until we can find the 1857 Ordnance Manual we won't have the right answer I guess.

http://books.google.com/books?id=g4X...sec=frontcover

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

After finding the passenger window of my truck smashed by some miscreant this morning, the wind was taken out of my sails for other activities and I choose instead to find the pertinent passage in the 1850 Ordnance Manual to answer the question at hand...

http://books.google.com/books?id=g4XcbT6OlhQC&printsec=frontcover

On page 201 of the manual in the section on Infantry Accoutrements it identifies both the Cartridge Box Plate and Cartridge Box Belt Plate of the patterns used during the Civil War in the 1860's.

It explicitly talks about the placement of the Box Plate on the Cartridge Box, but it does not give a positive instruction on the placement of the Belt Plate on the Cartridge Box sling.

SO... the existence of Cartridge Box and Belt Plates are identified in 1850. The use of the Box Plate is clearly identified, but the use of the Belt Plate is not explicitly identified in 1850.

Now, the question in my mind is when the new patterns for Cartridge Boxes (with the waist belt loops added) and the authorization to use waxed leather for belts were issued in 1857, was there an update to the 1850 Manual?

Or was it issued as a directive and only included in the revised Ordnance Manual that was published in 1862?

[BrianHicks]

Re: Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

Outstanding. Those are the specific bits of info I was lacking.

I was thinking the the Ordnance Manuals would be the source, vice the Uniform Regulations.

I have read through what I have on the Uniform Regulation Changes of March 1858, and I did not find any reference to the Brass Plates. But I think this is due to the change in regulations promulgated at that time only addressed the changes (going back to Dark Blue Trousers, adopting the Hardee hat as the Dress hat, authorizing the SA Fatigue blouse for fatigue duty, etc.) and did not re-state the items that remained unchanged.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

Hallo!

Sorry, I am bopping in and out between the Mansfield, Ohio Civil War Show...

In brief and to over-generalize, the three editions of the U.S. Ordnance Manual tends to "codify" practices already in existance or changed. So, a lot of time one needs to find the series of numerous General Orders that put things into effect or make changes. OR, orders ansd contracts for the newly changed items.

The wearing of shoulder belts plates and cartridge box plates goes at least back to the Rev War, adapted from British practices.

The first known reference, for officers was in "General Orders, Greenville, June 26, 1795:

"Oval breastplate on white shoulder belt, three inches by two and a half inches, ornamented with an eagle in gold or silver, to match the buttons."

That was alterred in 1802 to inckude, for the first time, "the number of the Regiment" along with "the American eagle."

Shoulder belt plates for bayonet belts for enlisted men appear with the introduction of the 1808 pattern shoulder plate, followed by the 1819 reduction of the belts to 2 1/4 inches.

In 1826, the Ordnance Department issued a new pattern bayonet shoulder belt plate with an eagle instead of the 1819 pattern "US" letters. In 1828, they dropped the previous maker Moritz Furst, for Robert Dingee (aka the "Dingee" plate). Basically, the "Dingee" style plate ran with some minor changes from 1828 until
1872.

The US "oval" cartridge box plate evovles along the lines of the US oval waist belt plate. As a response to complaints about the infantry and dragoon accoutrements duirng the Seminole War, a review board was convened in 1837 to suggest changes. The new US plates were listed in the 1839 Ordnance Regulations, and then described in detail in the 1841 Ordnance Manual. These are the 1839 Pattern.
The first significant change to the 1839 pattern(s) came in 1844 again as a result of complaints.
The next significant pattern change (note that within the pattern there are numerous arsenal and contractor "variations on the same theme" was in 1861 when the standard US plate was enlarged to 2.25 X 3.5 inches.
The next significant change was around Janaury 1863 when the arrowhead studs replaced the puppy paw studs on the wasitbelt.
And last but not least, the last change was July of 1864 when the 1839 pattern box plate was replaced with the embossed raised letters instead of a plate.

Curt

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Pre-War Uniform Regulations Question

Outstanding. Those are the specific bits of info I was lacking.

Thank You Sir, for a research project to sink my teeth. It was a pleasure to be of assistance and increase my own knowledge.

Curt, thanks for the additional background... I think I want to learn more than I do now about the Seminole Wars.