Telescoped (collapsed) Hardee hats in 1st Corps Black Hats?

[Ryan Halsey]

Would any men in the Black Hats (1st) have worn telescoped hardees? I have one for western fed, but didn't know about this.

[Furlough Frank]

Re: Hardee hats

Ryan,

Exactly what is a "telescoped Hardee"? Do you have a picture of one?

Respectfully,

Frank Campbell
"At the age of four with paper hats and wooden swords we're all Generals." - Ambrose Bierce

[Haversack]

Re: Hardee hats

Sir,
It is a shorter Hardee with a telescoped crown.

[PVT.THIB]

Re: Hardee hats

I believe it is shorter because the crown has been pushed in.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Hardee hats

So.. perhaps the question might be more precisely phrased as:

"Considering the men of the 1st (The Black Hats), is there any documentation, references, personal letters or diary entries with descriptions of, or images of any of them wearing their Hardee Hat with a personal modification to it's shape? Such as pushing the crown down to a telescoped type appearance?"

[John E. Tobey]

Re: Hardee hats

There's plenty of anectotal documentation for altering the shape of the regulation hat. Problem is, it's tough to tell precisely what alterations were being made. Here's a couple of examples...

The 3rd Michigan cavalry was ordered to fold the crown of their hats in the "Continental Style" (whatever that was) in 1864 (Troiani 179).

Even more revealing was the comment of an officer:“It seems to me that soldiers take delight in seeing into what ludicrous shapes they can get these hats." (Brackett, 160-161)

John Tobey

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Hardee hats

Thanks Brian. Thats a better way to put it.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Hardee hats

Ryan, this post makes my morning. Finally a question I have researched already. Here is a very early war image of the 1st VA. Unfortunately there are no hardee's in the image. There are many overcoats (which was my research topic).
I have more images...I believe some with civilian slouches, tons of kepis, a couple of forage caps...I have some quotes about the look of the 1st from two different primary sources....I will get those on here asap. Hope this helps

[lukegilly13]

Re: Hardee hats

Ryan,
After a little further consideration, and I hate to us a "what if", but in this case I think it applies. You must decide 'is the lack of evidence, evidence of a lack'? If you want to "okay" that type of hat in your impression maybe you can find out if they had access to that particular issue hat. Correct me if i'm wrong but the hardee is a federal issue dress hat? Here is the Union order of battle at 1st Manassas. You might check their quartermaster records or look for images to determine if any 1st boys could have "acquired" one from the post battlefield. I will continue to look for the 1st person quotations and newspaper descriptions that I have in storage.
1st Battle of Bull Run Union Order of Battle

Union Army
Brig. Gen. IRVIN McDOWELL, COMMANDING

FIRST DIVISION.
Brig. Gen. DANIEL TYLER.

First Brigade
Col. E. D. KEYES.

Second Maine.
First Connecticut.
Second Connecticut.
Third Connecticut.

Second Brigade.
Brig. Gen. R. C. SCHENCK.

Second New York (State Militia).
First Ohio.
Second Ohio.
E, Second U.S. Artillery.

Third Brigade.
Col. W. T. SHERMAN.

Thirteenth New York.
Sixty-ninth New York.
Seventy-ninth New York.
Second Wisconsin.
E, Third U.S. Artillery.

Fourth Brigade.
Col. I. B. RICHARDSON,

First Massachusetts.
Twelfth New York.
Second Michigan.
Third Michigan.
G, First U.S. Artillery.
M, Second U.S. Artillery.

SECOND DIVISION.
Col. ANDREW PORTER.

First Brigade.
Col. Andrew Porter.

Eighth New York (Militia).
Fourteenth New York.
Twenty-seventh Now York.
Battalion U.S. Infantry.
Battalion U.S. Marines.
Battalion U.S. Cavalry.
D, Fifth U.S. Artillery.

Second Brigade.
Col. A. E. Burnside.

Second New Hampshire.
First Rhode Island.
Second Rhode Island.
Seventy-first New York.

THIRD DIVISION.
Col. S. P. HEINTZELMAN, wounded.

First Brigade.
Col. W. B. FRANKLIN.

Fifth Massachusetts.
Eleventh Massachusetts.
First Minnesota.
I, First U.S. Artillery.

Second Brigade.
Col. O. B. WILLCOX, wounded and captured.

Eleventh New York (Fire Zouaves).
Thirty-eighth New York.
First Michigan.
Fourth Michigan.
D, Second U.S. Artillery.

Third Brigade.
Col. O. O. HOWARD.

Third Maine.
Fourth Maine.
Fifth Maine.
Second Vermont.

FOURTH (RESERVE) DIVISION.
Brig. Gen. THEODORE RUNYON.

Three months

First New Jersey.
Second New Jersey.
Third New Jersey.
Third New Jersey.

Three years

First New Jersey.
Second New Jersey.
Fourth New Jersey.
Forty-first New York.

FIFTH DIVISION.
Col. DIXON S. MILES.

First Brigade.
Col. Louis BLENKER.

Eighth New York (Volunteers).
Twenty-ninth New York.
Thirty-ninth New York.
Twenty-seventh Pennsylvania.
A, Second U.S. Artillery.
Bookwood's New York Battery.

Second Brigade.
Col. THOMAS A. DAVIES.

Sixteenth New York.
Eighteenth New York.
Thirty-first New York.
Thirty-second New York.
G, Second U.S. Artillery.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Hardee hats

Ummmm...could we define just which "1st" we're talking about?

There were lots of "1st"...for example in Virginia; we had the "1st" VA Infantry, "1st" Virginia Cavalry, "1st" Virginia Artillary...I know other states has similar naming conventions for their volunteer soldiers. And each of these had their own variations in uniforms.

LukeG: That image of the "1st" VA Vol. Regt. Ifantry was taken at John Brown's hanging in December 1858 at Charleston, Virginia (now Western)...that's why they're wearing overcoats.

Firms such as Horstmann Bros. of Philadelphia sold to state militias and private militia companies extensively throughout the country prior to the war. Many of these militia groups mirrored the appearance of the "Federal Uniform Regulations".

While the Hardee hat was the Federal "dress-hat"...it saw use by Southern militia companies as well...while I do not have any images on hand...I have seen more than 1/2 dozen images attributed to soldiers from Rockbridge, VA wearing a dark-blue dress-coat "frock-coat" and wearing black dress-hats "hardees" with one side pinned up and with trim. I'll see if I can rattle up some images of the Rockbridge boys over the next few days.

Paul B.

[hiplainsyank]

Re: Hardee hats

A few years back I remember reading an article here about Hardees, where the author had gone around investigating surviving examples, measuring and the like. I recall that he found a lot of variance in the original height of the hats, and even the width of the brim, meaning that the tall reproductions today should be joined by lower crowned varieties.

This was probably 5 or so years back, so that article was probably lost in one of the crashes, but maybe the author still has it and could repost it. I thought it was very interesting.

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Hardee hats

I am talking about the Federal Black Hats. (1st Core.) Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry about the confusion, I was really busy when I posted. Boy Scouts, Rev War, in 3 civil war units, oldtime bands, and high school baseball is getting to me.

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Hardee hats

By the way Luke. Congrats on your new son!

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Hardee hats

Hallo!

" I recall that he found a lot of variance in the original height of the hats, and even the width of the brim, meaning that the tall reproductions today should be joined by lower crowned varieties."

I don't have the QM dress hat specs handy, but we need to be careful of "a lot a "variance" is more subtle than "a lot." The specs often cited are for a "medium size" hat at 6 1/4.
A Size 2 is listed 5 1/2, a Size 4 at 5 3/4 inches.

However here are some original heights-by-size samples:

Size 3: 5 3/4
Size 4: 5 5/8
Size 4: 5 7/8
Size 5: 5 3/4

Looking at a range of Federal photographs in general, the dress hat can be found worn as issued (looking "pilgrim-like") to the fore-and-aft crease ("karate chop") to crushed on the sides to make a center ridge, punched out,
collapsed down, and "telescoped."
One I recall was crushed and actually sewn down.

The QM specs set the brim width at 3 1/4 inches. However, that also varies slightly such as down to 3 inches or 3 1/8, etc., 3 inches seems to havebeen a common variation without getting into a discussion of shrinkage of Russian Hare and Scottish Coney fur-felt blend. ;)

Curt

[Ryan Halsey]

Re: Hardee hats

Thanks for your help. I will use that in the future.