1839 Riflemans Box Plate

[AZFarrier]

Hello all
I have in my possession a potential origional M1839 riflemans box plate (see attached pictures). This item is on loan from a fellow firefighter on another shift. He was given this plate by an old cowboy many years ago, who was going to modify it in to a buckle (thankfully he didn't). He gave it to me to try to find out more about the origination of the plate and the contractor. He could not tell me any more past that.

On the back it is stamped

W.H. SMITH
BROOKLYN

I know that many of the antibellum cartridge boxes were produced in eastern arsenals and shipped west.
I don't have the access or knowledge on how to find out about this particular contractor. Any help any one can give would be appriciated
Thank you

[August77]

Re: 1839 Riflemans Box Plate

From Directory of American Military Goods Dealers & Makers: Combined Edition by Bruce S. Bazelon and William F. McGuinn:

Smith, W.H., Brooklyn, NY. Smith's name (with Brooklyn) is stamped on U.S. accoutrement plates of the Civil War period. He cannot be positively identified previous to the war because a number of W.H. Smith's are listed in the Brooklyn CD's. A William H. Smith was listed in Brooklyn in the 1850's as a lamp mfgr. but there were others just as likely. The subject W.H. Smith is not the same as William H. Smith of Young, Smith, Maiden Lane, NYC. Another possible William H. Smith who made the plates with that name is one listed in 1862 as a brass finisher at 44 State.
W.H. Smith had a contract on Jul. 12, 1864 for 2,000 waist belt plates & 2,000 cartridge box plates & on Aug. 23, 1864 for 3,000 cartridge box plates & 3,000 bayonet scabbard tips. Smith must have had other contracts for plates before & during the war because of the large numbers recovered from Civil War sites that have his mark.
-Smith, William H., Brooklyn, NY. An ad in the NY Tribune of Jun. 11, 1861 (p. 1, col. 3) identifies the W.H. Smith, Brooklyn who made buckles & accoutrement plates in the Civil War. The ad was "Brass Trimmings for all kinds of Military Equipments, furnished at short notice, and warranted to stand the United States inspection. W.H. Smith No. 44 State St. South Brooklyn." Smith appears twice in the Brooklyn directories, in 1862 as a finisher at 44 State (home NY) & as chandeliers in 1863 at the same address. Smith was active from at least the 1861 date of the ad thru his U.S. contracts in the Summer of 1864. He still cannot be positively identified before of after that time. His name is also stamped on an SNY buckle indicating that he had a pre-war NY contract.

[AZFarrier]

Re: 1839 Riflemans Box Plate

Thank you Bill
Well that brings up another conumdrum then. This plate measures 3" X 1 1/2" approx. All of the plates on boxes I have seen during the civil war period are the larger ones. were there smaller plates used on 1861 and later boxes? I don't have my Civil War catridge box book (by Paul Johnson) but I'm sure I will find out more there.
Thank you again

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 1839 Riflemans Box Plate

Hallo!

Plates vary a millimeter or three by maker.

"Ideally," the 1839 regulations adopted two sizes, a belt sized small 1.6 X 2.8 and the larger 2.2 X 3.5 for infantry boxes and dragoon sabre belts. (The smaller one was alos used for rifleman and dragoon cartridge box plates.)
That changed in 1861 when the regs enlarged the plate to 2.25 X 3.5 inches.

Curt

[roundshot]

Re: 1839 Riflemans Box Plate

The smaller size US box plates were prescribed for the flaps of pistol, rifle, and carbine cartridge boxes between 1839-1861. A good many also saw CW usage either by early state volunteers or southerners stocked from supplies in federal arsenals.

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: 1839 Riflemans Box Plate

Hi Andy,

According to Michael J O'Donnell & J. Duncan Campbell book American Military Belt Plates. The book states:

Cartridge Box Plate, Regulation 1839 Pattern, Dragoon or Rifleman Enlisted , ca. 1861

Dimentions: 41 X 72 mm

Construction: Die- struck rolled brass face. Lead filled with iron wire loops. " W. H. Smith/Brooklyn" stamped on back.

Remarks: Smith was a metal-worker who produced thousands of regulation plates during the war. This example (Same as yours Andy) suggests that some of Smith's marked plates pre-dated the 1861 outbreak of fighting. However, a few states continued purchasing small US plates during the early war.

Plate pictured in book Courtesy of George Kegerreis

Hope this helps

Don