.69 Caliber Enfield?

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

I recently purchased an original Enfield bayonet on Ebay. It was what I thought totally mislabeled as a WWII .69 caliber Navy Enfield. All the measurements seemed to match up with a .577, and I thought I might get a deal. When it arrived i went to put it on my musekt it fit, but it was way too loose, it apparently is for a .69 caliber. I did a quick search online and the only reference I could find was to a dug .69 caliber Enfield bullett, does anyone have any information on this? It's a nice looking bayonet with the broad head arrow, WD E2 and crown. Thanks for any help I get!

[rogue]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Covered, my statement was in error.
S. Sullivan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Hallo!

I suspect what you found was one of the bayonets for the P1858 or P1859 smoothbore musket for native infantry regiments in India. The musket bore was .656.
As a companion arm, there was also the smoothbore P1858 Sergeants Fusil in .656 for arming the sergeants of native regiments.

Ideally, at the time, it was official policy not to "accentuate" differences in armament between British and native infantry regiments.

Curt

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Thanks for information, now to learn more about it!

[erik]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Robert,
To learn more you should seek out "The British Soldier's Firearm, 1850-1864", Chapter IV, page 111 by C. H. Roads.
Obviously this an India pattern bayonet for the post Mutiny arm of .656 cal.
I would like to talk about an exchange of an original .557 for this bayonet.

Erik Simundson

[LeftCoastYank]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Wow! I am always impressed by the width knowledge possessed by people here that extends past the Civil War!

Maybe this is a stupid question - although I have theory already - but, why would the British issue obviously obsolete weapons to native troops?

Dave Shcwartz

[BobbyHughes]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Mr Ambrose,

WOW, wish I could get my hands on that bayonet.... just for display with my '59 India Pattern. Course, I also need a lock, lock plate washers, and screws. :wink_smil

As to why the British armed native troops with Smoothbores, it was too put the Native Indian troops on lesser footing then Regular British troops, and to put a less effective weapon in the hands of troops that had just recently mutinied.

[Blair]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

If this is an actual P-'53 socket bayonet, why would the bore dia. of the socket have changed? The Brits do and were boring out the rifling of the P-'53's "bores" to .656, but I got to ask, why would this change the outside dia. of the barrel?
To my knowledge, they weren't changing the outside barrel diameters, only the bore diameters.
Just a thought,

[David Fox]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Pure speculation, but over the past several years native copies of British-pattern 1842 .75 calibre percussion muskets have been imported from Napal, as most of us know. How 'bout this being a bayonet for one of this family of weapons, if indeed the bayonet is of British derivation?

[robert-m]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

It could also possible be a 1839 Tower smoothbore, it is pretty much an earlier model of the 42 75 cal. that Mr. Fox mentioned . They were some of the firearms sent to India as well as the US shortly before the war. The Enfield in general is the 19th century, as the Ak 47 is in today's world.

[ACo.]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Pictures and a more accurate description would help, especially when it comes to the socket.

Quoting the original post: "...bayonet with the broad head arrow, WD E2 and crown." If it does indeed have the Broad Arrow (British Government Property Mark) and the "WD" (War Department) and the "Royal Crown over E2" (Enfield) inspector's mark, it is not a bayonet for a Napalese or other Commonwealth bayonet for "native troops". With those markings, it is a standard pattern British Army bayonet and could be for one of the standard .75 muskets or possibly one of the 33" two band guns used by the regulars. We can only speculate without pictures and measurements.

[DBAR1918]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Pictures would really help and would be worth a thousand words of Internet speculation. This bayonet could be for just about anything. The Broad Arrow and crown markings do indeed signify that the bayonet was accepted for Imperial service at one time. Look for the two "opposing" Broad Arrow stamps that look like a cancelled "X" and signify that the item was condemned and sold out of British government service.

The Pattern 1839 and Pattern 1842 Muskets were smoothbore and usually from .75" to .756" caliber. The bayonets for these are an odd combination of what we are used to seeing for the Land and India Pattern "Bess" muskets with some transition features most of us are familiar with on the Pattern 1853 and later rifle muskets. Does it have a locking ring clasp, or is it set up for the Hanoverian or Lowell catch? I already have a Hanoverian-style catch with an unissued and British-marked scabbard, but am looking for the other two.

[ContinentalMorganGuard]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Well I know its not a Napal 42 bayonet, It has a locking ring. I need to post pictures, but it looks just like a 53 Enfield bayonet but it is for a larger bore / barrel diameter weapon. Since its not in front me, the only markings on this bayonet are the ones I described before. I'll try and post pictures later.

[Enfield]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

That said, I'm sure that Curt's original ID is correct. These bayonets used to be quite common at gun and relic shows, always labeled as P53 bayonets, and it will indeed go on a P53, but it will be very loose. The overall barrel diameter of the .656 caliber Native Infantry muskets was indeed increased, so the bayonet sockets had to be similarly enlarged. Other than that one detail, it is identical to a P53 bayonet.

Geoff Walden

[Enfield]

Re: .69 Caliber Enfield?

Here is a measurement you can check. The bayonet for the Pattern 1859 Indian Musket (smoothbore Native Infantry Musket) was made to fit a barrel with an outside muzzle diameter 0.838-inch. The earlier P58 Indian Musket barrel had an outside muzzle diamater of 0.788-in. In contrast, the regulation P53 muzzle diameter was 0.774-in. So if you can get an inside diameter measurement of your bayonet socket, it may indicate which of these models it was made to fit.

Geoff Walden