Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

[nmilbury]

Hello gentleman,
I've noticed on most sources(web sites or books) that mention the ratio of lined versus unlined sackcoats is stated as 3:1. The exact numbers are 3,685,755 lined versus 1,809,207 unlined. This is a 2:1 ratio, not a 3:1. The difference in doubling the unlined sackcoats is only 67, 341 less that the total number of lined coats. For it to be a 3:1 ratio, there would have to over 5 million lined sackcoats produced. So, I was wondering where this 3:1 ration came from? I think 67,000 out of five and a half million garment produced is not enough to merit it being a "3 to 1 ratio." From these number does it seem that unlined sacks were more common than is supposed.
sincerely,
Nathan Milbury

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

Something I would like to know is if it was a common practice to request lined or unlined blouses. I know that the companies in the 1st and 2nd U.S. Sharpshooter Regiments were specifically requesting unlined blouses and since they were supplied no differently than everyone else the practice they had going is interesting.

Brian White

[nmilbury]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

I take it everyone who read this agrees...I'm still curious as to where the 3:1 thing came from.
sincerely,
Nathan Milbury

[MoFed]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

This goes beyond your fatigue blouse question, but may be of interest to others. The Board of Examiners auditing and settling the books of the Missouri Quartermaster General found that as of Dec. 31, 1863, there remained on hand in the U.S. arsenal for the use of Missouri State Militia and Enrolled Missouri Militia the following (excerpts):

3,581 hats, untrimmed
347 hats, trimmed
1,424 caps
870 jackets, cavalry
1,123 jackets, infantry
41 blouses, unlined
4,004 bloused, lined
4,488 trowsers, infantry
1,981 trowsers, cavalry
2,921 shirts
1,517 drawers
3,600 stockings, pairs of
1,776 shoes, pairs of
344 boots, cavalry
4,490 great coats, infantry
6,547 canteens
5,071 haversacks
4,931 blankets, wool
250 blankets, rubber
1 hospital tent, complete
77 wall tents
77 wall tent flies
75 sets well tent poles
216 wall tent pins
198 common tents
198 sets common tent poles
747 common tent pins
6,096 shelter tents
3,671 shelter tent poles
922 camp kettles
1,830 mess pans

As for weapons, they include:

1,417 Austrian muskets, calibre .58
1,019 Austrian muskets, calibre .69
4,260 Prussian muskets
3,850 U.S. muskets, calibre .69
8 U.S. muskets, calibre .56
184 Garibaldi rifles
244 Tower muskets
97 Enfield muskets
62 U.S. musketoons
150 Cadet muskets
23 Enfield carbines
132 U.S. rifles
1,308 double barrel shotguns
38 Dresden muskets
35 Savage revolvers
133 holster pistols
59 squirrel rifles

Charles D. Hoskins

[CJDaley]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

I'm still curious as to where the 3:1 thing came from.

Here are some numbers for you: http://www.cjdaley.com/sackcoatcontracts.htm

[nmilbury]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

Hello,
First of all, thanks Mr. Hoskins for that info (it is very interesting), and Mr Daley for that link...I remembered seeing that chart before but for the life of me could not remember where.
The information provided on Chris Daleys website (if this is the most accurate informaton available and includes all sackcoats contracted by the federal government during the civil war period) only proves the point that unlined sackcoats were more common than is supposed.
On this chart we have for a grand total, 1,799,000 lined, 1,176,000 unlined, and 666,000 unspecified sackcoats produced. For the Philadelphia Depot we have 558,000 lined, and 439,000 unlined, and 170,000 unspecified. Lets assume that we can split the unspecified group into equal halves that constitute 85,000 lined and unlined each. That equals 643,000 lined and 524,000 unlined. This is 55 percent lined and 45 percent unlined. If we do that for the rest of the depots, we get percentage-wise: New York Depot, 61 percent lined, 39 percent unlined, and for the Cincinatti Depot, we get 58 percent lined, 42 percent unlined. Putting all this together we get on average, 58 percent lined, and 42 percent unlined, or roughly 3:2. This is of course assuming that the unspecified sacks are equal shares of lined and unlined garments. By repeating this process to create a max and min of possible numbers we get assuming all the unspecified are lined, Philadelphia depot: 62% lined, 38 Unlined; New York Depot: 71% lined, 29% unlined; and Cincinatti Depot: 69% lined and 31 percent lined. Total average: 68% lined, and 32% unlined--a 2.3:1 ratio, this would be the minimum for the number of unlined sackcoats produced. For a maximum we get (assuming that all unspecified are unlined), 49% lined, and 51% unlined, or a 1:1 ratio.
So in summary, it seems that the minimum ratio for lined versus unlined sackcoats produced assuming that all unspecified are lined is, 2.3:1 or roughly, 2:1, a midpoint assuming that unspecified can be split in half: 3:2, and a maximum assuming all unspecified are unlined, 1:1. Unless someone who has more information on this particular subject, (perhaps it's mentioned in Pat Brown's new book-I haven't purchased it yet)can shed some light on this, it seems that unlined sackcoats were more common than most people suppose being produced roughly 2:1, not 3:1.
Sincerely,
Nathan Milbury

[CJDaley]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

only proves the point that unlined sackcoats were more common than is supposed.

Don't forget that that chart only deals with CONTRACTS the goverment issued. It doesn't deal with sack coats actually produced by the goverment from the arsenals.

The 3:1 number is used in the Smisthonian video on uniforms and I think I have some other numbers in my files (but I moved last month and most of my files are still in boxes).

Hope this helps.

[nmilbury]

got more research to do

Thanks for the input Mr. Daley.

Sincerely,
Nathan Milbury

[2RIVB]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

To take this a step further, do not include unspecified items. We can only calculate on what is known first. If we know that, with in the numbers, we have a 3:2 ratio; odds are that this trend would continue with the unspecified sack coats, as well. You'll never know for sure that this is accurate, but, then again, how much do we really have to go on. Odds are in your favor that the 3:2 ratio would be the common trend among all sack coats. I'm sure someone on this board is better with math than myself, and may be able to find you a better numerological solution. But, this is all pretty much, hypothesis and theory any way.

[Company Tailor]

Re: Unlined versus Lined federal sackcoats

Gents,
Having "dabbled" in research on the sack coat I thought I'd chime in.....

I'll call myself an agnostic on the question. The fact is we don't know what the exact ratios of lined to unlined coats were and probably never will. The simple fact alone that there were so many open contract purchases (where no contract was drawn up) makes nailing down exact numbers next to impossible. Add to this the fact that many of the contracts that were drawn up are either destroyed or remain yet to be uncovered and the chance of finding the exact ration become even more remote.

We do know that units would request unlined coats when the weather got warm and lined coats in cooler seasons though (see For Fatigue Purposes, the Army Sack Coat of 1857 - 1872 pages 11-12).

Our great-great grandfathers seemed to prefer lined coats in the winter and unlined in the summer.... If they are the ones we are portraying shouldn't we also?

Great question, great thoughts and great thread.

Best,

[nmilbury]

Thanks

I'd like to thank everyone for their input on this vexing topic.
Sincerely,
Nathan Milbury