Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

[AZReenactor]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Dustin,
That is a real shame. The good news is though that a little diligence at drill and you all can fix that shortcoming right quick.

[paulcalloway]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Caseys states it as follows:

The stack thus formed, the rear-rank man of every odd file will pass his piece into his left hand, the barrel turned to the front and sloping the bayonet forward, rest it on the stack.

It's pretty clear from that text that the only one touching that rifle should the rear rank one.

...

We also had a stacking dispute in our company as well on whether the front rank two shifts his left hand from his own rifle to the front rank one's rifle to steady the stack.

The manual is clear that the front rank one never quits his piece with his left hand but instead receives the front one's rifle with his right hand, plants it 32" out (with his right hand) and leaves his right hand on that same rifle while the rear two inserts his rifle into the stack. --- basically under and through the armpit of the front two.

At the command stack arms, the front-rank man of every even-numbered tile will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand above the middle band, and place the butt behind and near the right foot of the man next on the left) the barrel turned to the front. At the same time the front-rank man of every odd-numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand below the middle band, and hand it to the man next on the left; the latter will receive it with the right hand two inches above the middle band, throw the butt about thirty-two inches to the front, opposite to his right shoulder, inclining the muzzle toward him, and lock the shanks of the two bayonets: the lock of this second piece toward the right, and its shank above that of the first piece. The rear-rank man of every even file will project his bayonet forward, and introduce it (using both hands) between and under the shanks of the two other bayonets. He will then abandon the piece to his file leader, who will receive it with the right hand under the middle band, bring the butt to the front, holding up his own piece and the stack with the left hand, and place the butt of this third piece between the feet of the man next on the right, the S plate to the rear.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Brian

I believe it's actually SCOTT's TACTICS that mentions about sergeants staking.

Ahh... there you have it.

Thank you Sir!

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

For clarity's sake, I don't know where the term "Kentucky Swing" came from (perhaps its a dance?), but the method of stacking arms DOES, in fact, exist!

From Hardee's 1862 edition:

John,

I realize that there is a "swing" type version of stacking arms and after reading my post I do appreciate you clarifying it for me.

The point I was making going for is what is practiced as the KY swing is not what is written in the various manuals that use a "swing" type stack such as the example you posted. This includes at least one KY Militia manual that I have seen. One part that is practiced incorrectly, as I so often see it, besides what has been mentioned already is moving on the preparatory command for both stacking and unstacking.

[JBuschlen]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Hardee's pre-1862 edition No. 413 and Casey's No. 428 make it clear that no movement occurs until the command of execution. Presently, I do not have access to the 1862 edition of Hardees with the swing, does this method follow suit with the afore mentioned?

Humbly,
Jeremy Buschlen

[markj]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

A peripherally interesting item about the "Wolfe" or "Smith" method of stacking arms is attached below. No specifics, but while Ellsworth claims to have independently invented this method c.1855, it appears to have been in use for some years before Ellsworth appeared on the scene.

Scroll down about 3/4 in the 17 July 1860 NY Times article to see this item. I have also attached some interesting items about "General Persifer F. Smith" (1798-1858), who allegedly invented the aforementioned method of stacking arms.

Yours, &c.,

Mark Jaeger

[John McPherson]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Silas offers an interesting and compelling rationale to support his interpretation of the taking of arms from the stack. I, too, am familiar with the method described by Casey in his Infantry Tactics. I think that the question posed by some and discussed by Silas has more to do with the interpretation of the word "raise" in the following instruction:

"these two men will raise up the stack to loosen the rammers, or shanks of the bayonets. "

Silas interprets the word raise as the physical lifting of the pieces from the ground. In this point, I differ. My experience with the taking of arms from a stack has led me and others familiar with this method to interpret the word raise not as a lifting of pieces from the ground but instead a tilting of the pieces of the front rank men from an angled posture to that of a vertical position. The butts of the pieces never leave the ground; in addition no man has to step out of position to facilitate the disengagement of the pieces. If all of the weapons utilize the same bayonet type and all of the men in the stacking file understand and are fully competent in the stacking procedure, the entire process moves quite efficiently and w/o hassle.

Thoughts, clarifications? Great posts by everyone!

John McPherson
Snohomish, WA

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Silas interprets the word raise as the physical lifting of the pieces from the ground. In this point, I differ. My experience with the taking of arms from a stack has led me and others familiar with this method to interpret the word raise not as a lifting of pieces from the ground but instead a tilting of the pieces of the front rank men from an angled posture to that of a vertical position.

John,

A couple of points to think about in your argument:

1) Hardee's manual instructs the "stacker" in 410 to hold the piece three inches above the right toe, as follows:

410. At this command, number two of the front rank will pass his piece before him, seize it with the left hand about the middle band; slope it across the body, barrel to the rear, the butt three inches above the right toe of the man on his left, muzzle six inches to the right of his right shoulder.

Therefore, would it not make sense to return the pieces to their position "above the ground" in order to break the stack?

2) It is not necessary to move one's feet in order pick up the stack. The stack is made with one's feet in-place and can be broken the same way.

Interesting thoughts, though. I will be interested to play with this a bit at my next event. Ultimately, like the great "Right Oblique Debate" (or was it left?), these things are best answered by trying it while reading the manual, rather than reading the manual and trying to imagine it. :wink_smil

[Strawfoot]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

I think a greater concern should be assuring that the front rank number 2 man does not try to control the stack by holding his and the front rank 1's rifle simultaneously at the base of the bayonets.

As an NCO, I've stepped in on several occassions to prevent guys from getting their left hands skewered by the rear rank number 2's bayonet.

It's refreshing to see an actual discussion about drill authenticity, rather than gear type, or the material make-up and construction of some shell jacket. I've often lamented that even the greenest, rookie regiments of the WBTS could drill rings around any of us. This is not just due to our lack of cohesion and practice, but study in the manuals as well.

At fifty feet, even the farbiest looking set of clowns who can drill their asses off will make an authentically dressed, yet cluelessly drilled re-enactor company look bad.


Mike Phineas
Arlington, TX

[Silas]

To lift or lean in taking arms?

John McP, go to the explanation in Baxter's which is a more complete statement of the movements of the Scott/Casey/Gilham method of taking or unstacking arms. Here's the link : http://books.google.com/books?id=nK_...d=1_1#PPA75,M1

Baxter is an under reviewed source for fleshing out and supplementing details found in other comparable schools of the soldier. The illustrations are superb.

[Silas]

To lift or lean in taking arms?

Here's a little explanation with a side by side comparison to Baxter and Casey. First, I note the full text of each concerning the manner of taking arms.

Baxter :

TAKE ARMS.

At this command the front rank man of every odd file will remove his piece from the stack — the front rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with his left hand, and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both below the middle bands. The rear rank man of every even file will advance the hollow of his right foot towards the right heel of his file leader, and with his right hand seize his own piece below the middle band— both men will raise the stack, close together, turn the knuckles in, which movement unlocks the bayonets readily — the front rank man will pass the piece in his right hand over to the man on his right, and all taking the position of ordered arms.

Casey :

TO RESUME ARMS.

427. Both ranks being re-formed in rear of their stacks, the instructor will command :

Take — ARMS.

428. At this command, the rear-rank man of every odd-numbered file will withdraw his piece from the stack ; the front-rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with the left hand and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both above the lower band ; the rear-rank man of the even file will seize his piece with the right hand below the lower band (if the rifle musket be used the piece will be seized at the middle band) ; these two men will raise up the stack to loosen the rammers, or shanks of the bayonets. The front-rank man of every odd file will facilitate the disengagement of the rammers, if necessary, by drawing them out slightly with the left hand, and will receive his piece from the hand of the man next on his left ; the four men will retake the position of the soldier at order arms.

Now, here is a phrase by phrase examination of each :

B : TAKE ARMS.
C : Take — ARMS.

B : At this command the front rank man of every odd file will remove his piece from the stack —
C : At this command, the rear-rank man of every odd-numbered file will withdraw his piece from the stack ;

The line about the front rank man in Baxter is an error in the original text. The last man placing his musket on the stack was the rear rank man of the odd file. Subsequent lines will show that the front rank even man's musket is still in the stack after the first musket has been removed.

B : the front rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with his left hand
C : the front-rank man of every even file will seize his own piece with the left hand

There's the front rank even man seizing his musket that supposedly had already left Baxter's stack. Obvious error in the text.

B : and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both below the middle bands
C : and that of the man on his right with his right hand, both above the lower band

The difference in text still causes the hand to land in the same place. This is a difference without a distinction. I call this, The Hug. The only way the front rank even man can seize the two muskets without inserting his hand inside the stack, which is going be closed like an umbrella, is to reach around the stack and give it a big hug.

B : The rear rank man of every even file
C : the rear-rank man of the even file

B : will advance the hollow of his right foot towards the right heel of his file leader,
C : [nothing]

Baxter provides some extra text that helps explain the movement.

B : and with his right hand seize his own piece below the middle band
C : will seize his piece with the right hand [at the middle band]

Baxter and Casey phrase this line differently, but pretty much say the same thing. I added "at the middle band" as this is the instruction from his manual about what is done if the rifle musket be used. If it's the shorter rifle, the text has the man seizing the piece "below the lower band."

B : both men will raise the stack close together,
C : these two men will raise up the stack [nothing]

"Both men" or "these two men" means the front and rear rank even men. The "close together" language cannot mean that the stack is leaned to the left oblique of the front rank even man. I read the phrase, "raise the stack close together" to mean that the men of the even file lift and while so doing, they bring their hands together which causes it to close like an umbrella.

B : turn the knuckles in, which movement unlocks the bayonets readily
C : [nothing]

This is the big difference. The turning of the knuckles causes the bayonets to unlock almost like a miracle.

B : [nothing]
C : to loosen the [ ] shanks of the bayonets.

In Casey, I remove the word, "rammers" as this pertains to the short rifle, not the longer musket. This phrase and the previous one from Baxter really belong together, but it makes the differences easier to see if separated. Both phrases concern the same thing : loosening the shanks.

B : the front rank man
C : The front-rank man of every odd file

Same meaning. Baxter is more concise.

B : [nothing]
C : will facilitate the disengagement of the rammers, if necessary, by drawing them out slightly with the left hand,

This text concerns the short rifle, not the longer musket, and does not apply to the discussion.

B : will pass the piece in his right hand over to the man on his right,
C : will receive his piece from the hand of the man next on his left

Once again, the meaning is the same.

B : and all taking the position of ordered arms.
C : the four men will retake the position of the soldier at order arms.

Again, same meaning with Baxter being more concise.

In conclusion, I don't agree that the stack should be leaned to remove the the rear rank two's musket. The entire stack should be raised off the ground and closed while it is being raised. Had Casey included the turning movement of the knuckles - or better yet, had he gone to the more advanced "swing" method - there wouldn't be this discussion.

The downside of doing the raise, close and turn movements is that The Hug must occur first. We all know that guys at reenactments aren't big on giving hugs while in the ranks. People might talk ....

[Benedict]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

What about the videos on this page? http://www.122ndnewyork.com/manual/stack.html

Our group drills according to Casey, but with the exception of stack arms - that is still the "Kentucky Swing" . . . But I hope that will be changed the next time we meet!

[Bill]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

This would probably be considered a farbism; but my unit has modified the instructions for breaking the stack slightly. Like most units, we have a mix of Enfields, Springfields, reproduction and original bayonets. We found, that unless everyone was very careful, the stocks on the Springfields, above the upper band, were getting damaged by the screws on the Enfield upper band.

We lift the stack slightly to release the bayonets, but the #2 Rear Rank Man reaches forward and slides his weapon out of the stack, almost the opposite the way it was put in the stack. Each man handles his own weapon.

This method is very quick and has eliminated the stock damage.

[John McPherson]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Silas's clarification of the Take-ARMS! procedure with the line by line comparison of Casey's version with that of Baxter's version encourages me to reassess how I've interpreted the procedure. Casey's description did not describe the specific hand movement while Baxter's went the next step. FYI Silas, Lawrence, Josh, & I will work this new/old interpretation out next weekend as we get ready for the At High Tide as the "Lost Towney Mess." We'll see you across the field; we'll be with Sykes's Regulars.

Thanks for taking the time to post your details!

John McPherson
Snohomish, WA

[flattop32355]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

We also had a stacking dispute in our company as well on whether the front rank two shifts his left hand from his own rifle to the front rank one's rifle to steady the stack.

We were also ordered that, if we were the rear rank one, that our leaner should be placed in a near vertical position, with the butt tucked into the stack, rather than angled out, as are the other three rifle muskets.

At no point in this discussion, or in reading the manuals, do I see a justification for this practice.

However, at the event, we were asked not to question/comment on/challenge the orders of our officers, and such request was complied with by all in our company.