Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

[Michael Comer]

So am I missing something? I read the manuals and it seems they say that the only guy who puts the rear rank #1's musket on the stack is that man and he is the only one that takes it off. Isn't that what they say? He reaches through and leans it on the stack. At the order to Take Arms, he reaches through and removes his weapon from the stack.

Now if that is so, how come I keep going to authentic events and keep having folks argue with me that the front rank #2 reaches back, takes it and stacks it for him and then hands it to him when breaking the stack? Isn't that less efficient? Doesn't that make it take more time to make or break the stack? Is it not written that way in any of the manuals? Has anyone read the manuals?

I'm not being facetious here. It happens so much - just the other day at Pickett's Mill for instance - that I am beginning to doubt my ability to comprehend what I'm reading. Please tell me if I am wrong and I will apologize and never say another word about it. But, if I'm right, I want to know so I can continue the crusade to get folks to do this simple thing correctly.

I also would suggest that every event has a stacking drill prior to going live. It will make things go much easier and help those that are not usually in that front rank 2 slot know what their role is.

And don't get me started on the proper way to challenge while on guard and what the parole is really for. But that's another thread.

[lambrew]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Hardee's states that the odd number rear rank man places his own rifle on the stack, he also takes it off. So if I read it right, your right.

Respectfully....
Sean Collicott

[justthemiller]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

It is true that the "rear rank #1" is the only person to touch his musket whether it be placing it in the stack or taking it from the stack. Also, it is the same be it Casey's, Gilhams, or Hardee's Revised. Those that state otherwise are not reading the manuals properly. In Casey's manual it is on page 95 starting w/paragraph 423. In Gilhams it is on page 145 staring w/paragraph 222 and unfortunately I've seemed to have misplaced my copy of Hardee's Revised but it is the same I assure you. Take care.

[BrianHicks]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Mr. Comer,

You are correct on the proper manner in which the stack arms is supposed to take place. And yes... this continues to persist as a problem were others want to handle the rear rank #1's weapon.

Another continuing problem is when the Sgts place and retrieve their weapons from the stacks. As I recall, although not specifically stated in the Drill Manuals, Katz tels us that the Sgts place their weapons on the stack after the command to break ranks is given, and they retrieve their weapons prior to the ranks being called back to attention in the ranks. (and yes.... I know, Kautz wasn't published during first few years of the war, but what he did publish was a compilation of the practices that had been used during the war.)

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

This is another area of School of the Soldier that is so simple but yet has become so messed up. I get tired of going to events and having to be that guy in the ranks that wants to correct everything. At times I just cringe and keep my mouth closed which is becoming harder to do.

Personally, I believe it is a hold over from groups that did that crazy reenactor "Kentucky" swing. Which I have never found in any drill manual even in a Kentucky militia drill manual. At least not as I have always seen it done. I guess it is a step forward that that version is slipping away and that some versions of the "poke through" method have taken hold.

But is it too much to ask that everyone at least read School of the Soldier once (and I mean actually read it not just look at the commands). By doing that it would solve so much of this stuff.

Now you have gone and stirred me up!!:D

[KCLoewe]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Jeremy,
I think you hit the nail on the head. I have never read anywhere of anyone but the odd file of the rear rank touching his musket. My onloy guess is it's from the "kentucky swing" mantality. I think you are asking too much that everyone read the manual they or their unit uses! This is really simple stuff, but then again so is everyone stepping off at the same time!

[Rob Murray]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

I also would suggest that every event has a stacking drill prior to going live. It will make things go much easier and help those that are not usually in that front rank 2 slot know what their role is.

Micheal, Nice thought. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it don't. A while back, I was at an event where most of the company was clueless on how to stack arms. After watching and along with the other NCOs attempting to help them get it right, I finally went to the Capt. and said "Sir, don't make 'em stack arms in the dark, coz it aint gonna happen". He stood there in utter disbelief, I said "sorry Sir", saluted and took my place in the ranks. Needless to say we didn't stack in the dark.

[john duffer]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Brian

I believe it's actually SCOTT's TACTICS that mentions about sergeants staking.

[trippcor]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Mr. Comer,
Good thread and one of my pet peavs as well. It drives me nuts when this is done wrong.

[Silas]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Since the subject is stacking arms, I keep seeing Federal units which know perform the Scott/Gilham/Casey stack very well. However, when they unstack arms, they lean the stack forward to free the rear rank two's musket. Essentially, they reverse or undo the movements which they peformed to create the stack.

When I show them how to unstack by lifting all three weapons together to unlock them, they think I'm nuts. I may actually be nuts, but these manuals are pretty clear about lifting all three weapons in unison instead of leaning the front rank weapons forward and removing the third.

As part of my written plans for the AoT battalion which were sent to the company commanders a week ago, I included this particular language :

- Stacking Arms / Breaking Ranks

For some reason this seems to be one of the toughest things relative to drill in all of reenacting. The only method to be used is the "swing" method found in Hardee's Revised. Each man in the battalion shall be able to stack properly. Practice stacking in the dark on Friday night if necessary, but it must be done correctly by daybreak Saturday morning.

Stacking is extremely important. It gives the men an opportunity to rest. Whenever the battalion stops and it appears we will have a break for more than five minutes, we will stack arms and break ranks. To maximize periods of rest, the men must be able to stack, break ranks, reform and unstack without confusion.

Stacking matters.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Personally, I believe it is a hold over from groups that did that crazy reenactor "Kentucky" swing. Which I have never found in any drill manual even in a Kentucky militia drill manual. At least not as I have always seen it done.

For clarity's sake, I don't know where the term "Kentucky Swing" came from (perhaps its a dance?), but the method of stacking arms DOES, in fact, exist!

From Hardee's 1862 edition:

Stack arms

The men being at order arms, the instructor will command:

410. At this command, number two of the front rank will pass his piece before him, seize it with the left hand about the middle band; slope it across the body, barrel to the rear, the butt three inches above the right toe of the man on his left, muzzle six inches to the right of his right shoulder.

411. Number two of the rear rank will turn his piece, lock square to the front, and pass it to his front rank man, who will seize it with his right hand about the middle band and incline it forward, resting the neck of the bayonet on that of his own bayonet and close to the blade. Number one of the front rank will turn the barrel of his piece square to the front, slope it across the body, place the neck of his bayonet, above the necks, and between the blades of the other two bayonets, holding the piece with the right hand at the middle band, the butt three inches form the ground at his right toe.

412. Number two of the front rank will throw the butt of the rear rank man's piece about thirty inches to the front, at the same time resting the butt of his own piece on the ground on the left, and a little in rear of his left toe. At the same instant, number one of the front rank will rest the butt of his piece on the ground, a little on front of his right toe. Number one of the rear rank will incline his piece on the stack thus formed. (bold print mine for emphasis in the topic of this thread)

[john duffer]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

The "swing' was bundled with 1855 Hardee's in some cases to give a method for staking three banders and I believe "Kentucky Swing" came into reenactor use because it was included with a Kentucky Militia manual. It's my belief that Hardee either borrowed this from Ellsworth or both borrowed it from another source. Notice that Hardee generally uses "even number / odd number" except for the staking section where it's "number one / two". Upton switches from the Scott/Casey stack to the Ellsworth/Hardee stack postwar.

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

To follow up on John's post with the excerpt from Hardee's Manual (1862); the following is the excerpt from Gilham's Manual for the Militia.

To Stack Arms.

222. The men being at order arms, the instructor will command:

Stack - ARMS.

At this command, the front rank man of every even numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand above he middle band, and place the butt behind and near the right foot of the man next on the left, the barrel turned to the front. At the same time the front rank man of every odd numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand below the middle band, and hand it to the man next on the left; the latter will receive it with the right hand two inches above the middle band, throw the butt about thirty-two inches to the front, opposite to his right shoulder, incline the muzzle towards him, and lock the shanks of he two bayonets; the lock of this second piece towards the right, and its shank above that of the first piece. The rear rank man of every even file will project his bayonet forward, and introduce it (using both hands) between and under the shanks of the two other bayonets. He will then abandon the piece to his file leader, who will receive it with the right hand under the middle band, bring the butt to the front, holding up his own piece and the stack with the left hand, and place the butt of this third piece between the feet of the man next on the right, the S plate to the rear. The stack thus formed, the rear rank man of every odd file will pass his piece into his left hand, the barrel turned to the front, and, sloping the bayonet forward, rest it on the stack.

223. If the company be armed with rifles, or any piece without the bayonet, arms will be stacked by the same commands, and in the following manner: At the command stack arms, the front rank man of every even numbered file will pass his piece before him, seizing it with the left hand near the upper band; will place the butt a little in advance of his left toe, the barrel turned towards the body, and draw the rammer slightly from its place; the front rank man of every odd numbered file will also draw the rammer slightly, and pass his piece to the man next on his left, who will seize it with the right hand near the upper band, and place the butt a little in advance of the right toe of the man next on his right, the barrel turned to the front; he will then cross the rammers of the two pieces, the rammer of the piece of the odd numbered man being inside; the rear rank man of every even file will also draw his rammer, lean his piece forward, the lock-plate downwards, advance the right foot about six inches, and insert the rammer between the rammer and barrel of the piece of his front rank man; with his left hand he will place the butt of his piece on the ground, thirty-two inches in rear of, and perpendicular to, the front rank, bringing back his right foot by the side of the left; the front rank man of every even file will at the same time lean the stack to the rear, quit it with his right hand, and force all the rammers down. The stack being thus formed, the rear rank man of every odd file will pass his piece into his left hand, the barrel to the front, and inclining it forward, will rest it on the stack.

Bold Text modern addition for emphasis on the procedure centered as the topic for this thread.

Note: As commented by the original poster (Mr. Comer), the manual clearly states, that the rear man maintains control of his weapon during the entire process.

Paul B.

[Joe Walker]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

In 1983 myself, along with a few pards read aloud from the Kentucky State Militia manual how to stack the so-called "Ky stack" and performed same. It seamed to spread from there. In 1992 I was given a copy of an 1861 version of Goetzel's Hardees. Interesting enough, it didn't have the "swing" stacking in it. However, the Lieut that owned the maunual struck through the old stacking article and in it's place he inserted his own hand-written instructions for the so called KY stack.

I have seen the Ky manual and it is in there- plus, it was added to Goetzel's Hardees not in the first version.

Joe Walker
Waco Guards

[deovindice11]

Re: Rear Rank One in Stacking Arms

Most of the guys in my unit have enough trouble marching in time, let alone stacking correctly ha ha