4th Michigan (canada hat )

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Heres my question. Blue or maroon? I asked for blue based on the research that Erik found in the American Military Equipage.

I know that Steve and Dave are using the colored tintype for the maroon choice.

Any other items to consider before I make my final answer?

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Yeah, I'm stewing over this question, as well. I'm interested in learning more about color choice and how folks arrived at a decision. I've seen a lot of discussion about hand-tinting on tintypes to support the dark red. What about the blue?

Thanks!

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Looking at the photos provided (especially the one that is first posted) it appears the cap is the same shade of black/gray as the coats. Does this mean the cap is dark blue? I don’t know.

I was talking with Will Eichler this morning and he had a good idea. What if we took a period photo of a color wheel? We can then compare this period photo of the color wheel to the period photos of the caps. This may then tell us if it was red/maroon or blue.

Here are the questions for that.
Are the photos posted glass or tin (if this would affect the results)? Does anyone already have a color wheel shot in period photography by chance? Will thought he knew where he could go to get this done but not sure on the length of time it would take.

[KathyBradford]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Ashley Middleton (Diochra here) had posted a color wheel with comparative shades from historic photographic methods a while back. Unfortunately, I can't find it here any more. I've sent a PM requesting that she might make it available, if possible. It would be yet another piece of the puzzle.

Thanks for continuing to pursue the right answers.

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

I found this thread: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...hlight=Diochra

But the link provided in the post no longer works.:cry_smile

Perhaps someone has it somewhere else.....

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

I found another interesting image with what appears to be the same style hat in a different Michigan regiment. It is of Peter and Alexander Dibean of the 5th Michigan, Co D in 1861. A link to the photo is below. Again, it appears that the hat is the same color as the coat. Perhaps this hat will work for multiple Michigan (at least earlier war) impressions. I also love the “Michigan Sack Coats” they are wearing but that is for another thread.

http://www.michiganinthewar.org/photos/peter.htm

[Beaner]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Folks,
I have just to talked the individual who owns the images and he has give permission for them to be published for historical reference only on the 4th Michigan Website as well as the Wolcott Mill Event site. They are maroon and not blue. The preference for Wolcott Mill is Maroon. There is an addtional photo in the Hecker collection at the Monroe Historical Museum. This is also Maroon. I feel if we are going to recreate these hats they need to be the correct color. Once these pictures are on the website they can't be reproduced without permission of the owner. Kathy I will be sending you copies of the photos so you can reproduce the hat. He has asked that we do not reproduce these photos. Please honor his wish. This is a very important reveal and must be respected as such.

Dave Prince

[Jeremy Bevard]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

The preference for Wolcott Mill is Maroon.

The uniform regs for Wolcott Mill did list dark blue as an option but I see that has been changed now.

I feel if we are going to recreate these hats they need to be the correct color.

I know we all agree on this fact.

I know I asked for a blue hat but I am rethinking this but have not made up my mind quite yet. Still hoping for more info. However, unless something big comes to light I will most likly change to maroon to match the majority...when in Rome:sarcastic.

I can't wait to see that colored tintype.

[KathyBradford]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Dave,

Thank you for sending the pictures. The colored one convincingly shows a maroon cap with a tassel in nearly the same blue as his trowsers. The shape of the cap on the right side confirms the seams from earlier discussion. It bulges ever-so-slightly at just the right place. We're on the right track.

It was very generous of the owner to share these great pictures. They won't go any further.

Thank you.

[KathyBradford]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Sometimes gold is hidden in plain sight. Here is yet another of Virginia Mescher's great articles, and it has many comparisons of fabrics photographed in modern color, wetplate, and black and white. Examples start on page 10.

http://www.vintagevolumes.com/photo_article.pdf

Also, Ashley Middleton's color wheel comparisons are here.

http://sewingbird.1skinnygirl.com/gallery/colorwheel.htm

Just a little more fuel for the fire.

[Jeremy Bevard]

Kathy,
This is outstanding information Kathy! Thanks for finding it and thanks to those who did the research and writing.

I immediately noticed in Virginia Mescher’s article and Ashley Middleton's the reds photographed darker then the blues.

Dave,
Are those pictures on the Wolcott or 4th's site?

Thanks!!

Because of threads and info like this it makes the subscription worth every penny. I LOVE the AC!

[Beaner]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

They will be posted this weekend on both sites.

Event site is: http://www.fourthtexas.com. Click on the Skirmish at the Mill or Wolcott Mill link

the 4th Link is: http://www.4thmichigan.com

We we also be adding addtional eye whitness accounts and letters on these sites.

Dave Prince

[zouavecampaigner]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Shaun,
While I was looking into Colonel E.E. Ellsworth's Zouaves as the underlying influence for the use of the "Canadian hat" or "fez" as headgear by some men of the Fourth Michigan, I was informed that Ellsworth and his men never wore them. Cursory investigation shows that they were outfitted with chasseur caps for the unit's duration. So with regard to the headgear of the Fourth, one cannot attribute the use of "fez" styled headgear to the "Ellsworth effect".

Respectfully,

George Wilkinson
Dexter, Mich.

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

George,

the 11th NY Fire Zouaves wore red fezzes with a blue tassel, as well as blue fezzes with a blue tassel.

Regards,
Shaun

[4th Michigan Historian]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

Shaun,
Thanks... I stand corrected (with specific regard to the 11th N.Y.). I should have been more specific. I was actually referring to Ellsworth's Chicago Zouave Cadets, as they would have been the most likely candidate to influence the Michigan men (and the powers to be) with their tour through the Michigan area (as well as other states) in 1860. But as you and I know the Chicago cadets wore a French influenced Chasseur kepi in red with the exception of Ellsworth and possibly a couple of other officers who wore blue. But in all honesty, I don't believe that the 11th N.Y. Fire Zouaves (even in their more "honest" Zouave attire) deserve the credit for influencing the Fourth Michigan Infantry's headgear choice. But you might feel otherwise and I would welcome your views
Respectfully,

George Wilkinson
Dexter, Mich.

"I am tuff A nuff to cross hell on a wooden bridge to whip a trator"
Private Newell White, Co. B, Fourth Michigan Infantry (Aug. 5th,1861 letter home)

[recruiter4thmichigan]

Re: 4th Michigan (canada hat )

As far as the preservation donation , yes it could go to a good cause of the Historic Fort wayne, but what about donating it to something that should be close to everyones heart, The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. I being a veteran would love to see this tomb saved and not replaced. Just a thought !