US Eagle marked enfield

[1stMo Drummer]

Hello,
I used the search but alas, came up with nothing.
After looking through the rifle display case at a local county museum my brother is director of, i noticed something that caught my eye.
It is what appears to be a 1853 British 3-band enfield rifle musket, but has no markings other than an eagle, like the one found on springfields, on the lockplate.
Ive never seen one like that elsewhere, but mabye its just Ive never noticed it before. I thought that the ones bought/issued to the US were still marked with the Tower of London armory markings on the lockplate?
Thanks in advance for all the help/info.

[Jimmayo]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Sure there wasn't an "M" on the lock plate with the eagle?

These rifles were always thought to be Confederate manfactured but if memory serves me correct, information has surfaced that these Enfields were built in the North. I am sure Curt has this information on the front burner and can explain it better than I.

[1stMo Drummer]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

As best i could tell there was no M....I took a picture ill try to get uploaded this evening.
But as I said as best I could tell no M was on it...But the eagle did look pretty worn the M might have just faded/worn off.
Thanks

[1stMo Drummer]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Your right...After lookign at a zoom in of the picture i took i can see US Springfield marked on it....Couldnt locate an M....The hammer/cock is held on by a piece of iron/steel with a brass edge/rivet looking thing.
Ill try to attach the image...

[ACo.]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

That's very interesting. If it is indeed a member of the P53 Enfield family then it has had a US M1855, M1861 or M1863 lock fitted to it, quite a job. Or maybe someone at one time in the past ground off the original markings and applied spurious Springfield markings? Love to see the pics when you can get them posted.

[1stMo Drummer]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Problem solved...
It is in fact not an enfield, but a '63 springfield. I blame the confusion on my ignorance on the subject...The US Springfield stamped on the lock is not really visible in person but showed up in a picture.
I previously thought that a '63 still had the '61 styled barrel bands, these are very similar to the type on an enfield.
The sights are also different than a Springfield. But alas that was another change made in '63.
Still an interesting rifle, but not what I originally thought it to be.
:confused_

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Travis Franklin

Problem solved...
It is in fact not an enfield, but a '63 springfield. I blame the confusion on my ignorance on the subject...The US Springfield stamped on the lock is not really visible in person but showed up in a picture.
I previously thought that a '63 still had the '61 styled barrel bands, these are very similar to the type on an enfield.
The sights are also different than a Springfield. But alas that was another change made in '63.
Still an interesting rifle, but not what I originally thought it to be.

Hi,

I thought that it might be that. Both of these rifle muskets look very similar.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Hallo!

Interesting...

(Might I question that you might be possibly looking at an M1863 Springfield?)

Pictures would help... :)

I know of no "Enfield" that would carry a "Springfield" lockplate (unless as already shared, someone went to the great bother and work of fitting one-which is no simple matter).

I was just carrying my William Watson "M" Rifle this weakend.

The so-called "M" Rifles are a mystery. The are marked with a small eagle over a shield that has a small "M" on the top and vertical stripes below behind the hammer and a date in front of the hammer.

In brief and to over-generalize...

Who made the copies of the 3rd Model P1853 RM is still, IMHO, up in the air.
Some hold that they were either:

1. Orison Blunt's U.S. contract that got messed up between Enfields that were then changed to need to be interchangeable with SPringfields- so 500 Enfields were made up and rejected. Blunt quit, and likley sold the 500 to states for the militia.

2. J.P. Moore made up some Enfields in 1862, as 840 show up in New York arsenal inventory.

3. A McElwaine & Co, of Holly Springs, MS contract of July 1861- (but I doubt it as their contract was for 20,000 "M1841's" and 10,000 "M1842's."

4. Murdoch Morrison, Fayeteville, NC, assembling imported British parts.

5. William Watson of Fayetteville, being one of the British gunsmiths "lured" over by the promise of gold. When they were not paid in gold, man returned to England, but Watson remained opening his own shop as well as working at the Fayetteville Armory.

Since a number of "M" rifles have survived stamped "Walter Watson. Fayetteville, N.C." I tend to lean toward the Fayetteville connection...

Curt

[Enfield]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Hi Curt, et al.,

Re: Walter Watson and the "M" rifles ...

I was also pretty convinced that these were his guns, due to his stampings on several. But some years ago when I visited the little local museum in Fayetteville, there was a guy there (whose name escapes me) who seemed quite certain that all those Walter Watson markings on "M" rifles were spurious. He said they had been applied sometime after the war, using stamps from Watson's postwar wooden tool making business.

Now, I don't know if I believe this or not. I have never actually held a Watson-marked "M" rifle in my hands.

I seem to recall that not too long ago, someone did find some period reference that indicated the "M" rifles were indeed Northern associated. Now I can't remember who or what that was - I know - it's deplorable - bordering on "well, I heard this around the campfire ..." :o

But I'm with you - I don't think there is really clear-cut evidence on these things to settle it once and for all.

Geoff Walden

PS - Oh wait, I remembered what that was - it was supposedly an article in the "Gun Report" of some years ago. But I never got a copy of it myself.

Anyone else seen this "Gun Report" article?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Hallo!

Thanks, Geoff....

If I recall correctly, there are four (?) known "Walter Watson Fayetteville, N.C." marked guns. (One from Watson's son which could be nothing or a clue...)

A spurious post War stock stamp would help explain a lot.
Although the "why" is puzzling in a post War or Reconstruction South.

Curt
Still intrigued by the remote possibility of a "U.S. Eagle" stamped "Enfield."

[Dutchman Dick]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Hallo!

Interesting...

(Might I question that you might be possibly looking at an M1863 Springfield?)

Pictures would help... :)

I know of no "Enfield" that would carry a "Springfield" lockplate (unless as already shared, someone went to the great bother and work of fitting one-which is no simple matter).

I was just carrying my William Watson "M" Rifle this weakend.

The so-called "M" Rifles are a mystery. The are marked with a small eagle over a shield that has a small "M" on the top and vertical stripes below behind the hammer and a date in front of the hammer.

In brief and to over-generalize...

Who made the copies of the 3rd Model P1853 RM is still, IMHO, up in the air.
Some hold that they were either:

1. Orison Blunt's U.S. contract that got messed up between Enfields that were then changed to need to be interchangeable with SPringfields- so 500 Enfields were made up and rejected. Blunt quit, and likley sold the 500 to states for the militia.

2. J.P. Moore made up some Enfields in 1862, as 840 show up in New York arsenal inventory.

3. A McElwaine & Co, of Holly Springs, MS contract of July 1861- (but I doubt it as their contract was for 20,000 "M1841's" and 10,000 "M1842's."

4. Murdoch Morrison, Fayeteville, NC, assembling imported British parts.

5. William Watson of Fayetteville, being one of the British gunsmiths "lured" over by the promise of gold. When they were not paid in gold, man returned to England, but Watson remained opening his own shop as well as working at the Fayetteville Armory.

Since a number of "M" rifles have survived stamped "Walter Watson. Fayetteville, N.C." I tend to lean toward the Fayetteville connection...

Curt

I know this is slightly off topic, but Robbins & Lawrence of Windsor, VT made a fair number of second model P1853 Enfields for the British in the Crimean War, but the war ended before the contract was completed. Many of these ended up in the hands of Georgia troops, but there are also period photographs of some Union soldiers with second model P1853's as well. Some of these may be Robbins & Lawrence guns, and some may be British surplus that was bought in the desperate bid for any sort of shootable arms early in the war.

The second model P1853 has the following characteristics:

1) solid barrel bands retained with springs, a la Springfield.
2) front barrel band wider than the middle and rear bands, to help retain the ramrod
3) slotted, jag-headed, and rather slender ramrod with a swelling just behind the head, similar to Springfield ramrods (the swelling locked onto the front barrel band)
4) Sides of the rear sight are flat rather than convex, as on the first model P1853
5) nosecap retained with a single screw
6) rifling of uniform depth (progressive depth rifling became standard on the 3rd model P1853, which was the one most often seen in the Civil War)

Dates on 2nd model P1853's will be from 1855-1857. Robbins & Lawrence guns will be marked "Windsor" on the lockplate.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: US Eagle marked enfield

Hallo!

Here is an image of the '"M" Rifle" eagle/shield.



I have only ever handled and examined one.
Once Upon A Time, a member of my unit brought one to our monthly drill sessions with an eye to use it for reenacting....
I persuaded him otherwise.

Curt