Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

[Chris Montague]

Over the years of attending events, I get used to the idea of reenactors going into the fight hootin' and hollerin' with their dander up pretty high. This may be an appropriate impression for early war events and the first engagement with the unit that one is portraying. However, I would imagine that a unit who has seen some serious combat going into the fight would behave rather differently considering the men knew what they were about to endure, ranging from utter silence in the ranks to men becoming nauseated. Does anyone have specific examples of this (letters, diaries, memoirs, etc.), and how do you think we can accurately portray this when depicting a veteran unit without being "over the top"?

regards,

[1stMo Drummer]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

You know thats a good question, i hadnt thought of before.
It seems to make sense that after being witness to your pards being blown away so many time you wouldnt be excited about going into battle.
But I wonder if it was similar to nowadays.
As a friend of mine who was in Iraq explained to me. He said how even after losing guys they still went into combat ready to kick some arse, even sometime more so after losing somebody wanting to "get even" with the enemy.
Out of context here but...He told me of one time when they were being flown in by Blackhawks that they played the song Bodies to get themselves pumped up. ( let the bodies hit the floor, let the bodies hit the FLOOOOOORRRRR)
Likewise I would think back during the war the men would have hooped and hollered to get try to conquer their fears and such.
Again I have no period refrence, just my humble opinion. Would be GREAT to get some acounts of such.
Anyone out there have some ?

[DougCooper]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

Two outstanding books come to mind:

Embattled Courage, by Lindeman and For Cause and Comrades by McPherson. Both contrast the inexperienced valor of the early war with the grim courage required of the mid-late war. The courage it took to face the same terror when you knew all about it is perhaps the most sublime emotion of the war...and something that happens to all soldiers in all wars. Sometimes you yell to buck yourself up and those around you out of sense of outrage at your circumstance, as if fighting back against death and all its terrors. Its a desperate but fatalistic courage that allows a man to do his duty and stand up with his comrades when a rational observer would expect all to flee.

Said another way...I bet the troops of 64 were just as vocal as those of 61...for perhaps different motivations.

[Uncle Pig]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

Historians sometimes find a syndrome where units can become too “veteran”. As troops become accustomed to combat they become better at it and less likely to run. However units that have seen too much can refuse or neglect to follow orders that they perceive as wrong. When you read about a unit not attacking forcefully enough or seeking cover too quickly this may be the cause.

[Chris Montague]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

Two outstanding books come to mind:

Embattled Courage, by Lindeman and For Cause and Comrades by McPherson. Both contrast the inexperienced valor of the early war with the grim courage required of the mid-late war. The courage it took to face the same terror when you knew all about it is perhaps the most sublime emotion of the war...and something that happens to all soldiers in all wars. Sometimes you yell to buck yourself up and those around you out of sense of outrage at your circumstance, as if fighting back against death and all its terrors. Its a desperate but fatalistic courage that allows a man to do his duty and stand up with his comrades when a rational observer would expect all to flee.

Said another way...I bet the troops of 64 were just as vocal as those of 61...for perhaps different motivations.

Doug-

I've read for cause and comrades, but not the other. Ordering now =D It's been some years since I've read it, but it is a great one indeed. Thanks for the info and the insight.

Regards,

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

Chris,
Your a Marine, you know that everyone has a different "mind frame" that they put themselves in prior to the time. The Medical Convoys that I was on ....My Medics would always play "Highway to Hell" by ACDC. I would listen to Bob Dylan Highway 61 Revisted. But then again, I don't remember what I remembered.

[marine05]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

There are accounts, can't name them specifically at this time, of soldiers, when writing or telling of their experiences in battle of "grimly going about their task" or of various assaults "we gripped our muskets tighter and bowed our heads into the fire, continuing to go forward." There are even instances of veteran troops refusing to make stupid assaults. Those are the only things I've read other than most of the units being filled with veterans, with the shirkers mostly gone.

However interesting topic, but I truely don't think those fellows were much different from us now.

S/F

DJM

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

Doug Cooper

Said another way...I bet the troops of 64 were just as vocal as those of 61...for perhaps different motivations.

Hi,

I would have to agree.

[Chris Montague]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

Chris,
Your a Marine, you know that everyone has a different "mind frame" that they put themselves in prior to the time. The Medical Convoys that I was on ....My Medics would always play "Highway to Hell" by ACDC. I would listen to Bob Dylan Highway 61 Revisted. But then again, I don't remember what I remembered.

Dale-

For us in turd platoon, its "Bro Hymn" by Pennywise :wink_smil I'm sure guys that are in with combat experience can relate to this. I'm lead to believe that the manner that many Marines and Soldiers deal with combat and its effect on them has a lot to do with this "new generation of fighting men" and how we have been raised, much different than the boys of '61-'65. A specific example is a fellow marine and great friend of mine who participated in OIF I and was engaged in Nasiriyah. He has a personal photograph of him a fellow squadmate snapped, returning fire, rounds impacting the wall in front of him. A legitimate combat action. Funny thing is, he's hysterically laughing. I know everyone has their own way to deal (or not deal) with stress like that and by no means am I saying things like this never happened in the ACW. Just curious if anyone had specific unusual examples in a source that might break the stereotype.

Regards,

[BrisbaneReb]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

I can't say I'm adding all that much to the knowledge already presented but I don't believe pepping up a CW soldier was all that different to any other time in history. Commanders would make a speech and a prayer to focus the soldier on the coming task (if attacking or expecting the enemy). Within the firefight itself soldiers often called to each other, even made jokes, jeering the enemy. When you hear of units being 'jeered' out of position at the Wilderness I think it was a case not just of clever thinking but of fear and a way to do something rather than nothing at all. This is why entrenching became more popular later in the war (along with the use of rifled muskets), veterans who did the sane thing and threw themselves on the ground had 3 options: attack (probable death), retreat (certain shame) or stay put by digging in (which avoided options 1 & 2).
Drill also made the soldier, like the 24th Michigan at Fredericksburg where they drilled under enemy fire (an exception to the norm though). To remind themselves of their esprit de corps. Simply advancing with your buddies on either side puts the soldier in a position of 'a want to run away but that won't be fair to my pals.' And when you've got a group like that under intense pressure I'm sure they'd be making all the noise they can make, early and late war.

[Don Dixon]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

This is both on and off topic. I would highly recommend two books by LTC David Grossman, US Army (Retired). Grossman saw the elephant, is a psychologist, was an instructor at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and has interviewed numbers of soldiers and police who have also seen the elephant. The books are:

On Killing: The Pyshcological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, New York, NY, Little Brown and Company, 1995.

On Combat: The Psychology and Physiology of Deadly Conflict in War and Peace, Warrior Science Publications, 2004.

Both books are very highly regarded in certain communities. Unless you have seen the elephant for real, you can't really understand. Grossman comes very close.

Regards,
Don Dixon

[IowaYank]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

I am writing my term paper for my Historical Methods class on this very topic. If anyone is interested I will post it once I am done in December.

Dan

[smander]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

Gentlemen,

You train as you would fight and then when your in the fight you do as you were trained. I have been in Iraq as well as other combat situations and the morale of the unit is diectly related to the turst they have in their leadership!.

Questions?

Scott Manderville

[ajroscoe]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

While preparing for At High Tide this summer, I read up on the 1st MN on July 2nd. According to all reports, they advanced in their charge completely silently. Granted, the 1st MN, with the 2nd WI were the two most veteran volunteer units in the Army of the Potomac, so these were unusual men. Also, most knew that they were basically given a death sentence when ordered to make the charge, which might have influenced their actions and lack of noise.

[srmitchell]

Re: Demenor of combat-bound soldiers vs. green troops

All,
Interesting topic!
First of all, I have never been in combat, so my opinions may account to nothing more than hot air, you be the judge. I would think that in any unit, in any army, at any time, emotions on display would run the spectrum. You're always going to have yellers, trash-talkers, those who have nervous stomach, and those who go about the task with a quiet, deadly efficiency.
This may be one of those times when we as a group tend to over-evaluate something that should be relatively simple. I can understand the PEC philosophy when dealing with the issue of 'jaguar striped trousers', but when you deal with and individual's reaction to the insanity of combat, it would seem you must remember the individual soldier. There was a depot system for gear, not for personalities...
I don't see where there can be an accurate litmus test for this according to how many engagements one had been in. An army, especially an mostly volunteer force, is still tens of thousands of different human beings, no matter how effective the training camp. Let your portrayal get a personal touch once in awhile; your expirience, and the expirience of those around you may just be better for it.
Regards~
Stephen Mitchell
"life sucks the hobby out of ya" Mess