Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

[sthabig]

Hello,

I have a question about etiquette pertaining to the civil war soldier...

Would eating off your knife during that time period be considered a bad habit as it is considered by some today?

(Not talking about whether it is a safety issue, but rather an etiquette kind of thing)

I reel rather silly asking such a basic question...

Thanks,

Tyler Habig

[Mudslinger]

Re: Knives=Bad Habit?

From Godey's:

"Feed yourself with a fork or spoon, nothing else-a knife is only to be used for cutting."

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Knives=Bad Habit?

This is Virginia's spouse posting.

The following is an opinion.

One talk we heard on period etiquette put forward the notion that, if something was mentioned in an etiquette book, there was a good chance that enough people were doing the practice and it was felt it should be mentioned. If that premise is true, then it would depend on your personna. If you are a higher class, you would be more likely to have "correct" manners. However, if you were a lower class and not one who reads etiquette books or articles -- and a man would probably be less likely to read such things in any case -- then you might be using a more antiquated practice which is not used now in polite company. And if you are portraying a soldier, you wouldn't have your wife present to correct your manners!

Michael Mescher

[AZReenactor]

I must say I've enjoyed this topic a great deal. I did a few searches through Google books to see what historic references I might find and along the way enjoyed an interesting journey exploring how manners evolved and were disseminated to society. It seems that eating with a knife in polite society was acceptable well into the 1840s when it began to be fashionable to use a fork instead.From there it was a struggle to convince people that it was no longer polite and Well into the 1920's I found advice to educators on how to break common home habits of eating with the knife and sipping from saucers.

Just Talks on Common Things 1920 Boston

ON "TABLE MANNERS"

Years ago it was good form to eat with your knife. And there was a reason. It was a long advance on the etiquette that insisted that "fingers were made before forks."

It never seems to old-fashioned folk that the indictment of the table-knife as a food- freighter was well-taken. It was no mean accomplishment to "eat with the knife." It took dexterity, for instance, to eat peas with an old-fashioned steel table- knife, and a technical aptitude at it was as difficult as playing the piano. Most of my gray-haired readers— if I have any left—recall men who had a knife-technique that was swift, sure, accurate and profound. It always seemed cruel, to their presence, to insist upon change of style. Nothing was more beautiful than to see a full load of food balanced on a knife in mid-air, halted on its way to doom while the artist delayed a bit, to discuss with another kindred soul, similarly halting, such profound subjects as "The Immortality of the Soul" or the details of Predestination. There were men in those days who could even gesture with a knife- load and never spill a bean.

But they have mostly gone, those old experts. The few that exist are called sword-swallowers and are either ostracised altogether or are eating at the second table. The same thing has happened to those who drink out of their saucers and go to table in their shirt sleeves and drink out of the finger bowls. Years ago, it was not simply permissible to drink out of the "sasser"—it was an accomplishment. To see a man pour his tea into his saucer and cool it off and then lift it with firm touch and sip it with a long, soothing, sibilant, gurgling, fugue-like cadence that could be heard in the next county, was to see and hear the proper thing. The louder noise he could make, the more desirable dinner-guest he was considered. If he wanted to do a little fin-de-siecle flourish, he dipped his gingerbread in the tea in his saucer and then played a solo in double-bass with it thru his mustache. And then if he were a true artist and could wipe his mustache on his coat sleeve daintily—daintily, mark you— without the slightest suggestion of coarseness but with that infinite considerateness that betokens the saving of napkins, he was worth while; for napkins were rarely given out except to the minister.

Gleanings in Bee Culture December 1, 1903

When it first became fashionable to use a fork instead of a knife to convey food from the plate to the mouth, I rejected the newfangled innovation. Some of the younger people may smile. I can imagine some of the children who read this Home paper will say, " Why, mother, was there ever a time when people ate with their knives, putting a knife to their mouth instead of using a fork?"

If the mother is sixty years old or more she will reply, " Yes, my child, I can remember quite distinctly when everybody put the knife to the mouth until the new custom came around."

Good Housekeeping January 19, 1889

QUESTIONING THE FORK.

One of those heterodox fellows who may be found to question everything, asks upon what sound principle is the law founded that forbids the putting of the knife into the mouth in eating. Why should a plate of steel, he asks, be interdicted from an office that the same steel, bifurcated, trifurcated or quadrufurcated, may properly perform ? There is no objection to be made, on the score of cutting one's mouth, for in all ages of the past, when everybody ate with the knife, nobody ever cut his mouth. This heretic asserts that a certain consistency of food can be "hoisted in," as a Western man would say, much more readily by a knife than by a fork. Of course you can get the bulk of a mashed potato or turnip by dexterously fishing with a fork, but you can do it much neater and in better time with a knife, he continues; and then, the knife will secure all the gravy, which is mostly sifted out by the operation of the fork, and one thus loses the richest part of the meal.

It is a matter of history that knives played an important pan in domestic life long before forks were invented, and that when first the latter implements appeared it was considered a mark of effeminacy or ultra-refinement to use them. To such a degree was this prejudice against them indulged in in France that in the sixteenth century the use of forks was considered sinful in monasteries, and the monks split up into two parties on the question.

Forks originally came into use to save the fingers from soiling, and Italy was the first place where they were used. Ben Jonson writes of " the laudable use of forks brought into custom here as they are in Italy to the sparing of napkins." Some time later a writer praises the King of Hungary for eating without a fork without soiling his clothes. An old writer explains why the Italian used the fork by saying that he could not " endure to have his dish touched with his fingers, seeing that all men's fingers are not clean alike." But the fork was originally and up to very modern times used only to hold meat and other pieces of food while the knife was cutting them. The putting of it into the mouth instead of the knife was only an afterthought, due probably to the unclean appearance of the knife blade after it had been used to shovel into the mouth gravies, egg- yolks, acids, etc. For this reason silver forks were made; they are cleaner than iron or steel forks. Every step, then, from the original use of the fork as a substitute for the fingers, to its more extended use as a substitute for the .knife, together with the employment of silver in place of iron, has been dictated by cleanliness.

HOME DISSERTATIONS: AN OFFERING TO THE HOUSEHOLD 1886 New York

Never eat with your knife. Is this unnecessary advice? Go into any restaurant or hotel and observe.

A point in etiquette recently decided a lawsuit in a queer way. A traveler on a German railroad train attempted to eat a lunch while on the journey. While putting a piece of bologna sausage in his mouth the train stopped suddenly, causing his cheek to be badly cut on the edge of his knife, which he was using. The man sued the company for damages, but his claim was not sustained, on the ground that it is a breach of etiquette to eat with a knife.

A singular will has been probated at Jasper, Tenn. An old man died, leaving a large property in trust, to be used by the trustees in any manner they may deem best to suppress the habit prevalent among men of eating with knives when forks should be used. The deceased says he has always felt the disadvantages of early training in that respect. He was in the habit of reproving everybody at hotels or elsewhere he saw using knives for eating, and was a monomaniac on the subject.

It might as well be said here of the marked improvement generally as to the use of the knife, it is not now as universally sheathed in a man's or woman's mouth, as if they were sword-swallowers. Thirty years ago in France, the use of the knife at dinner was almost tabooed. The custom was to divide the food with the fork, rather an awkward custom, as forks have generally no cutting edge, and to aid the act of conveying food to the mouth on the fork, by means of a bit of bread ; which, by the way, is very useful in eating fish.

Don't: A Manual of Mistakes and Improprieties more or less prevalent in Conduct and Speech. 1884 London

Don't eat with your knife. Never put your knife into your mouth. (Is this advice unnecessary? Go into any restaurant and observe.) Cut with your knife; take up food with your fork.

The Chautauquan March 1884 Pennsylvania

I notice in our little book on " Good Manners," that putting the knife into the mouth is condemned by the regulations of so-called "society." A correspondent asks : " Have I not a right to put my knife into my mouth at"the table if I choose?" Answer: You have a perfect right to put your knife into your mouth, to pick your teeth with your fork, and to draw back from the table and tilt up your feet on the edge of the table. There are many rights which, as American citizens, we may enjoy in this country. But other people also have rights who are offended by such violations of propriety, and who arc tempted to think you a boor, and, although they may say nothing, you lose by your vulgarity and wilfulness far more than you gain in any way by such exercise of what you call "independence."

The Gentleman's Magazine March 1871 London

The French do not put their knives into their mouths as the English used to do, and as the Germans do... Avoid all ungraceful habits, such as using a knife in eating ; feed yourself with a fork or spoon, and use your knife for cutting only. . . . On no account pick your teeth after dinner; it is a most unseemly habit.

Advice to Young Men on Their Duties and Conduct in Life 1847 Boston

The laws of etiquette, or those conventional forms of good breeding, which prevail in society, when they are founded upon a just regard of man for man, should always be observed. Among these laws, as found in books of etiquette, are many which have in them no vital principle — which are the mere offspring of a sickly pride. They may be known from the fact that they are not based upon a generous consideration of others. These may be observed or not, as any one thinks best; and, when among those who make it a point to observe them, we should think it wise not to interrupt the general good feeling by their violation, unless a principle were involved. It is not wrong in itself to drink tea from your saucer instead of your cup, nor to eat with your knife instead of your fork; still, as these are usages of polite society, a man of good common sense will observe them when in company, no matter how partial he may be to his knife and saucer.

[AZReenactor]

Re: Knives=Bad Habit?

I came across this interesting article from the 1880s which sheds some light on the practice as well. This topic ought to be particularly interesting to thos depicting Germans of the period as it seems universally observed that Germans rarely ate with forks.

New York Times
September 18, 1880,
Page 4

AN ITALIAN DECISION.

An interesting and important legal decision has just been made by an Italian court. A commercial, while traveling on an Italian railway, undertook to eat a cold lunch, As is the habit of commercial travelers the world over, he used a knife for the purpose to which a fork should properly be devoted. While the knife was in his mouth a sudden jolt of the carriage caused him to cut his mouth. Thereupon he sued the railway company for damages, but the court decided that be had no right to put his knife in his mouth, and could not take advantage of his own wrongful act by basing a claim for damages upon it. This decision, condemning, as it does, with all the solemnity of judicial form, the practice of eating with a knife, will necessarily tend to break up that practice among the lower class of Italians. Should Parliament follow in the path marked out by this decision, and pass a law punishing knife-swallowers with fine and imprisonment, Italy would occupy a proud position in comparison with the rest of the world.

In our own country, especially in the West, the use of the knife as a shovel is so common that little is thought of the accidents to which it gives rise. The Western statesman is commonly seen wearing pieces of court-plaster at one or the other extremity of his mouth, in order to repair the damage caused by a. knife accident, but no one thinks of remarking upon so trivial and commonplace a matter. Among the Germans, where the use of the fork is almost unknown, the broad and genial smile characteristic of that race is believed to be almost wholly due to the accidental widening of the mouth. with incautiously used dinner knives. It is this liability to accident which has caused the total disuse of the knife as a dinner shovel among people of refinement. It is not a mere caprice of fashion which is responsible for the preference of the fork over the knife as an instrument for conveying food to the mouth. It is the feeling that no gentleman should cut his mouth open in the presence of other people, or should even give rise to apprehensions of such a disaster by using a dangerous instrument.

Why the majority of human beings in regions where knives and forks are known should put their knives in their mouths is a question which those persons who call themselves by the barbarous name of "sociologists" should investigate. A man cannot eat faster with a knife than he can with a fork. This was conclusively proved by a match which as made some years ago be tween a Western statesman and a Wall-street broker, the former to use a knife and the latter a fork. Hash, fried oysters, and chicken salad were the articles of food consumed during the match, Bud in every case the broker won. He finished his plate of hash three seconds before the statesman had finished his; he beat his opponent in the oyster test by eighteen seconds, the latter making no less than three misses; and he devoured the whole of his chicken salad while the statesman was shoveling one-half of his into his mouth. This victory was not due to any natural advantages possessed by the broker. Indeed, his mouth was smaller than the statesman's mouth, and he had not had anything like the experience of dining in five minutes at railway stations which the latter had enjoyed. The match proved beyond question that, other things being equal, a man can eat with a fork faster than he can with a knife. We may, then, unhesitatingly decide that the popularity of the knife Is not due to its superior efficiency. To what, then, are we to ascribe the use of this dangerous and clumsy tool?

There is something in the constitution of the human mind which leads it to prefer a shovel to any other tool. This is conspicuously seen in woman. If she wishes to dig a hole, she never takes a spade or even a pick-axe, but she always seizes a shovel and tries to make it do the duty of a spade. We see the same thing in children. When a small boy decides to dig a well on the top of a hill or in some other equally eligible situation, he always borrows the fire-shovel. Small-boys of ambitious views have often undertaken to dig to the centre of the earth in search of nail-mines, or have even tried to excavate direct tunnels to China, but they have never used any tool other than the shovel. If we explore the customs of antiquity we find the same strange prominence given to the shovel. On the painted walls of Egyptian tombs the laborers are represented in the act of laying gas-pipes or digging holes for telegraph posts with the shovel. In every one of these cases the spade would have done the work far better than a shovel, but humanity turns from the spade, the pick-axe, and the crowbar, and instinctively clings to the clumsy shovel.

Now, we have in this strange fondness of mankind for the' shovel the clue to the origin and persistent survival of the use of the dinner knife. To thrust the fork into a piece of meat and so convey it to the mouth seems to the natural man far less easy than to use the knife as a shovel, and so toss the meat into the mouth. It requires careful training to induce the small-boy, the woman, and the barbarous man to give up the shovel and use the spade and the pick-axe, and, similarly, nothing but careful education can teach a man to substitute a fork for a knife when eating. Undoubtedly, in the wild, free West there prevails an impression that there is something bold and free and enormously republican in knife-swallowing, but we can not seek in this impression the origin of a custom which is more universal in despotic Germany than anywhere else. The only probable explanation of it is the congenital homage of the race for shovels, and we shall be perfectly safe if we adopt this explanation.

[mtvernon]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

I reread the Just Talks on Common Things part. That's gold!

[Jimmayo]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

When I was a little shaver back in the 1950s there was an old man who lived across the street. At the time he seemed to be the oldest person I have ever seen. I have seen him pour his coffee into the saucer to cool it and then sipped it from the saucer. He also ate lots of things with a knife. It was not a sharp knife but more of the broad butter knife of the time. He also treated his dog's skin condition occasionally with burnt motor oil and sulfer. He was quite a character from the hills of Virginia and had come to work in the local ship yard. I haven't thought about him in years until this post.

[VMurphy]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

Wonderful comment. The heading "eating with a knife" caught my eye. I don't generally post here :)
But the old man mentioned must have been of the same generation and culture as my great Uncle, I recall watching him use the same table manners, and needless to say, my mother was very careful to point out that he was an old man, and my sister and I could not use the same techniques!
Regards
Vivian Murphy

[Hank Trent]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

He also ate lots of things with a knife. It was not a sharp knife but more of the broad butter knife of the time.

If you look at the evolution of table-knives (the dull ones) and forks from the early through late 19th century, generally speaking the knives get narrower while the forks add more tines to get wider. I've wondered if it had to do with changing eating habits. It's certainly easier to eat with your knife using one of the ones that comes with an early two-tine fork set, than even with the Civil War era ones, which are still wider than modern ones.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Raven]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

I think I will still eat with my knife more cause it just looks cool.

[sthabig]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

Wow,

I am amazed at the amount of good people who responded to my post...and Troy you have been extremely helpful with all of the cited sources! Very interesting to hear everyone's personal opinions and accounts too. (And thanks to whomever changed the heading, it certainly helped boost popularity!)

What brought this up was the other day I was "called out" when caught eating with my knife... And I was bet that IT WAS NEVER CONSIDERED GOOD ETIQUETTE TO EAT WITH A KNIFE (even in the Civil War he said)...

Which got me thinking...did they use the knife to eat?

I'm thinking they did...

Immensely enjoyed the "An Italian Decision" article-good info


Thanks to everyone,

Tyler Habig

[Mudslinger]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

Troy,

Great postings! That certainly changed my view on etiquette of the period, especially given the geographic locale, social and such. Do you have any more to post? This is one of the best threads I've read in awhile. Bully for you!

[AZReenactor]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

I'm glad my replies have proved useful and interesting. My search through Google Books and other online repositories turned up countless books and other sources regarding eating with knives. Particularly interesting were the items for educators on how to turn children from this once common way of eating to using a fork. Changing etiquite and common table habits created a conversation that might be akin to what it would take to turn people from forks to chopsticks (as an example) today.

[AZReenactor]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

From my research on Green River knives I recalled this morning an item that might be relevant. It was offered beginning late in war by the Russel Knife Works as an invalid's or one armed knife. At first I thought it a rather unique solution but after exploring this topic it doesn't seem quite so unusual.






It is an interesting reminder of period eating habits as well as what so very many soldiers gave up during the war. I'll have to look for an example as it could provide some interesting talking points during historical interpretation.

Interestingly, during my search for images of this knife I also came across modern examples still being sold today. The design also makes a great cheese knife it seems, but a few companies are marketing it still as a one arm knife for people who've suffered a stroke or other disability.

[AZReenactor]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

One other interesting observation regarding this shift in table manners that occurred to me. If you've ever eaten in the English or Continental manner by holding your knife in your right hand and the fork in the left you've probably had the inclination to use your knife to scoop food to your mouth. This is especially effective when using the older rev war era two tine forks or even the narrow little three tine Civil War era fork and wide rounded table knife. Over time forks seem to have gotten more tines as well as wider and more curved.

I've seen people with the opinion that the English way of eating is more refined but in reading through the transformation of etiquette it occurs to me that American guidelines specifically stated that a person should cut their meat, lay down the knife and switch the fork to the right hand as a way of breaking people from the old habit of eating with a knife. From the literature it may well be that Americans by and large switched to the fork from the knife more quickly than many Europeans who's method treats the fork much more like a spear for holding food while cutting it. (Which was an evolution from the old etiquette where a polite person would use a napkin in their left hand to hold food while cutting and eating it using a knife in their right, while common people did the same without the napkin.)

Interestingly in Thailand today it seems a fork is only used to scoop food into a spoon while eating, and "dangerously pointed" forks are never put into the mouth by civilized people.

Ain't the continuity of social evolution fun? ;-)