Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

Hallo!

"It was not always thus."

As shared...

America had been established before the rise of the use of the fork took off in England.

As a result, "Americans" evolved down a different path than the English, Germans, French, Italians, etc. when it came to dinner flatware.
Then again, how meals were presented and eaten shifted at the time of the CW away from the older "service à la française" to the newer "service à la russe."

Socio-economic factors aside, and in the "starts, stops, and fits" of how
cultural norms trickly down the ladder and get to different regions and communities over time as the generations change...

The Americans went to a one handed method of eating that continued to rely on the fork as the utensil of choice rather than on the previous spoon and knife.

"The knife is held in the right hand and the fork in the left. Holding food to the plate with the fork tines-down, a single bite-sized piece is cut with the knife. Never cut more than one piece at a time. The knife is then placed on the right edge of the plate (always with the blade facing inward) and the fork transferred to the right hand, with the left hand falling to the lap. The cut piece is then speared (if not already during the cut) or scooped and eaten using the fork in a tines-up orientation. The fork is held in the right hand or put down on the plate while chewing. The fork is then transferred back into the left hand, the right hand picks up the knife, and the process is repeated as necessary. A left-handed consumer can retain the fork in the stronger hand, although the knife is still released. While the position of the hand does not matter as it is placed on the fork while doing so, this is not considered completely proper."

However, contrast that with the European (Continental) style:

"The European manner is to hold the knife and fork, in the right and left hands respectively, throughout consumption. The hand grasp is also different: in Europe it is considered better manners not to hold a knife or fork as one would hold a pen, but to have the handle running along the palm and extending out to be held by thumb and forefinger. This style is sometimes called 'hidden handle'. This method is also common in Canada and other former parts of the British Empire. In contrast to the American method of using a fork much like a spoon (tines up), the British primarily use the fork with tines facing away from the user (tines down)."

All in all, because meal presentation and table settings were changing at the time of the CW, AND the use of utensils was slowly changing- how "hip" a soldier was to the latest fashion and etiquette would have been a socio-economic class, region or area, urban or rural, and how he was brought up (with a nod toward personal preferences).
IMHO, books of etiquette and instruction at the time of the CW and Post War harp on utensil use is because of the introduction of change and the slowness of people changing their customs and practices. ;) :)

A good discussion this, as these things are all layers to one's impression and
Believeable Image.

Unrelated, in the Modern World, spending time in different countries I adapt to the "English" or "German" use of utensils and usually can always "spot" the Americans at restaurants or dinner tables. (The same for Americans portraying WWI or WWII Germans.) ;) :)

Curt

[Dan Munson]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

I am glad Curt weighed in with that observation on how Europeans eat with their utensils. I picked up that habit while serving in the army (in West Germany, 1972-74) and have retained it. It seemed -- and still seems -- more efficient than endlessly switching the fork from one hand to the other.

Great thread! I now feel more comfortable either eating with knife or using knife only for cutting, depending on the persona I am using at an event. Great research by my pal Troy, and useful commentary by all (except me). And to close my post with something humorous, apropos to this thread, but unfortunately probably not "period", this little ditty:

I eat my peas with honey,
I've done it all my life;
It makes the peas taste funny,
But it keeps them on the knife! :)

[NoahBriggs]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

I read the sources with interest and growing delight - "sipping from the sasser" being particularly descriptive. Thanks also on the education on the evolving utensil use. One more detail I'll be paying attention to, be it in the next BBC drama or LH event.

Sure deepens my appreciation for the following dialogue -

"There is a fork on your left, Mr. Land. Or are you accustomed to eating utensils?"

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

Hallo!

"There is a fork on your left, Mr. Land. Or are you accustomed to eating utensils?"

I'm indifferent to 'em.

:)

Curt

[OldKingCrow]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

He also treated his dog's skin condition occasionally with burnt motor oil and sulfer.

True Southron treatment for sarcoptic mange.

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

Eating with your knife is bad manners
There is plenty of period advice against the practice
There was plenty of advice against 'cause people were doing it.
SO
Mark this dawn as socially unacceptable for persons with or aspiring to class
Do it anyway if your persona is one of low or no class or given to slumming
The Army does not attract the best people at 13 dollars a month.

Hargis, G., 5 A-1

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

I have added one post and two pre 1861. I found the two pre war sources very humourous.

Documents of the Assembly of the State of New York, Volume 103, Issue 3 By New York (State). Legislature. Assembly, circa 1880
While seeking thus to mend the morals and habits of children the plan of the society has not neglected their bodies; the "sick mission" supplies the sick children with medical attendance, medicine, and nourishing food; the "flower mission" fills their miserable rooms with sweet flowers; and the "summer home" gives them a week of sea bathing, fresh air and good country fare. One incidental effect of the latter, of some importance, is to teach the poor better habits of diet; the use of oatmeal, for instance, and of milk for children, instead of tea and coffee. Many, too, learn in this place, for the first time, civilized habits, such as eating with knife and fork, and sitting at table or sleeping "between two sheets."

Ladies Repository Vol.XXVIII, 1860
The following is from a story in the book titled "My Awkward Friend", pg. 264
I have said before that Tom was awkward; he was peculiarly so at the table; he never seemed to notice how other people conducted. He had a way of his own in doing every thing, and it was as unalterable as the laws of the Medes and Persians. He had no ready tact to accomodate himself to the company he was in; when he was with the Romans he never heeded what the Romans did, he preserved his individuality. Tom clung with tenacity to his old habits of eating with his knife and drinking out of his saucer, totally unaware that it was ungenteel. Indeed, eating and drinking was with him so little a matter of thought, he gave himself no concern about it other than to get over it as soon as possible. So in his own peculiar and awkward manner he seated himself at table with the fastidious Mrs. Harrison and her daughter. As it was plainly a matter of impossibility to eat soup with a knife, my friend took his spoon, and the first course passed off very well. Then came the roast, and Tom being very hungry ate away with a good relish, the odious knife making vary expeditious trips from his plate to his mouth. I saw Mrs. Harrison look at her daughter, and I saw the daughter's blue eyes dialate, and her lip curl just a little scornfully; but my friend still kept on with his meal. I began to pity Tom, for I was afraid he would see the ladies were remarking his lack of good breeding; but I might have saved myself the feeling; he was blind as a mole to any such thing-his thoughts were far different. Then came the pudding, and the knife having been removed from by the servant, Tom accomodated himself to circumstances, and made the spoon the answer to all practical purposes.

Across the Atlantic 1851
An Englishman's observation of eating in America, pg. 242
Another institution, not originally invented in America, but which in that favored land has been carried to a pitch of science and refinement which I have never seen equalled elsewhere, is the institution, whereby, in eating, the knife is made to supply the place of the fork. This habit, the sure sign of an excessively vulgar and ill-bred person, on this side of the Atlantic, is, on the other side, adopted by all classes of men with a degree of fervour and devotion, which, in a better cause, would be absolutely sublime. At two or three dinner parties to which I had the honour of receiving invitations, at Washington, and where the guests assembled were, with scarcely any exception, senators and members of the Government, I remarked, with unutterable feelings, that all my distinguished friends plunged into their mouths enormous wedges of meat and mounds of vegetable, perched on the ends of their knives. To be sure, one felt so certain that they were well accustomed to this kind of jugglery, that there was little apprehension of their cutting themselves; at the same time, the habit is not pleasant. It may appear ridiculous to notice so triffling a circumstance in a book; but, viewed in its proper light, the institution is by no means a triffling one. The man who commences by so far disregarding social prejudices as to eat with his knife, may go a little further; he may turn round in his chair and spit, during the progress of the repast. He may go a little further still, and look upon soap as a glittering frivolity, and upon washing his hands as a base surrender of the dignity of man.
Author ends this paragraph by stating
Allowing, as I do with all my heart, that the Americans are a great nation-nay, admitting, for the sake of arguement, that theyr are the greatest in the world-that cannot alter my firm conviction, derived from my own and every other Englishman's experience, that they are, in the expressive words of Mr. Dickens, "very dirty feeders."

Another source for good reading is institutional reform records, like prisons. The use of fork was expressed in a few sources as a road to recovery and a way to the straight and narrow. I wonder if that changed after the first fork shanking?

[English Doc]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

As a 'fresh fish' here, I found this thread totally absorbing and informative.

The same as some others, this brought to light my own childhood and youth.

As a left hander, I was ALWAYS chastised for using my knife in my left hand, but, strangely, if I had hot tea, I WAS allowed to sip from the saucer!

This went over to my school days (Left arm pinned to coat to force me to write right handed) and my military service - made to wear an eye patch on my left eye to force the use of the rifle into the right shoulder.

These were not in the early part of the century, but the late 1960's and 70's!

All of these were for etiquette, uniformity and 'Because that's the way things are done'

[talkToTheHat]

Re: Eating with Knives - a Bad Habit?

Somewhere in the bottom of my haversack there's usually a fork and table-knife. I only really use them When sufficiently immersed in what I'm doing, practicality takes over.

Now, I confess to being english and when there's a table to eat at it's fork in my left hand, knife in the other, knife never being raised off the plate, but as soon as any situation arises where one hand is needed to hold a plate, dish or mucket, it's generally a choice between a knife or a spoon, with my pocket knife being the knife of choice as it both cuts things properly and can be used to spear things, wet or greasy fingers are an annoyance, swapping between cutlery is annoying st it gets in the way or needs putting down where it could either get dirty, or get something else dirty.

In trying to carry as few things as possible and still be able to cook and eat without problems, a spoon and a pocket knife are essential, I think everything else is discardable, or at least can hide at the bottom of the haversack for emergencies, and my spoon mostly makes appearances when there's a bean based dish, or a stew/soup that fails on the spear the lumps and drink the rest strategy. And hardtack pudding. Hardtack pudding needs the spoon.

A small knife is also much better for stirring sugar (or condensed milk if available and appropriate) into coffee than a big spoon.

The rounded end table knife came into being in the 1600s allegedly when Cardinal Richelieu attempted to dissuade diners from picking their teeth at the dinner table. This style of knife is pretty useless for cutting a chunk of fried salt pork.

I'll echo that the constant reminders that eating with a knife is considered vulgar in polite society serve to illustrate that this did happen and was looked down upon by those in a position to write on etiquette.

So it's feasible for the hardened minimalist to survive on pocket knife and spoon. And practicalities haven't changed. I guess the most important question is can you make it look good and like you do it every day? Are you prepared to be told off (First Person) for your lack of table manners? And what's the background of your impression?

If you do the kind of thing where there's public being shown round the camp my personal preferences often lead to all kind of questions about mess furniture, etiquette, diet, transportation of provisions. I very much like to carry on with whatever I was doing, if I've been eating with a knife, I'll apologise for my bad manners and fish for a fork, if I'm grinding coffee or hardtack, I might suggest that I cleaned the butt of my musket first. I think it's the kind of thing that brings not only an impression but a whole camp to life.