Brown Bess

[rebpvt1864]

does anyone know of a British Brown Bess ever being used in the war. I've heard of them possibly being used at 1st Manassas, but i am not sure.
also, i think this is cool... my friend has an original Bess. in almost perfect condition.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Brown Bess

Hallo!

You may want to look up some of the previous discussions on this through the SEARCH function.

In brief and to over-generalize...

The issue is which so-called "Brown Bess?" Using modern hobbyist and collector terminology- a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Model?

(Usually when this question is asked it is about using an out-of-the-box or mint repro Short Land New Pattern so-called 2nd Model Brown Bess produced 1768-1797.)

Curt

[Gary of CA]

Re: Brown Bess

The guards at Andersonville (not the regulard or volunteers but the militia) carried them while patrolling the stockade walls. They were certainly good enough to hit anyone who crossed the deadline.

[rebpvt1864]

Re: Brown Bess

Hallo!

You may want to look up some of the previous discussions on this through the SEARCH function.

In brief and to over-generalize...

The issue is which so-called "Brown Bess?" Using modern hobbyist and collector terminology- a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th Model?

(Usually when this question is asked it is about using an out-of-the-box or mint repro Short Land New Pattern so-called 2nd Model Brown Bess produced 1768-1797.)

Curt

No model in particular, just any models lest over from the revolutionary war that local militias or guards would have possibly carried in early war.

thank you for your input!

[Silas]

Re: Brown Bess

Look at CS reports from the Battle of Mill Springs, Kentucky. The damp weather played havoc upon the flinters in use by one of the regiments. Cannot recall which regiment off the top of my head. The reports may indicate the particular weapon used.

[Bob McDonald]

Re: Brown Bess

Based on surviving examples, British service muskets - whether of the India pattern (3rd model), Short Land patterns (2nd models) or perhaps even Long Lands of several patterns (1st models) - were all as easily converted to percussion as were U.S. martial flinties. I recall seeing several in both museum and private collections, some with apparently reliable provenance of Civil War usage.
Except for a very, very few outliers, though, I'd strongly doubt that Besses in original flint configuration made it into ACW service; I've not seen one in an extant example or discernable in a period portrait image. Therein, I'd believe, lies Curt's caveat against an "out of the box" flint replica. Recreated conversion required.


Cheers,

Bob McDonald


I had a chance to see the American Army, man for man. ... It is incredible that soldiers composed of men of every age, even children of fifteen, of whites and blacks, unpaid and rather poorly fed, can march so fast and withstand fire so steadfastly.

Baron J. C. L. von Closen
White Plains, New York
July 1781

For Superb Primary Resources: www.RevWar75.com

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Brown Bess

Hallo!

In brief and to over-generalize...

The British Short, New Land Pattern musket had fallen from favor after 1777during the Rev War in favor of the French M1763/66/68 "Charleville" which then became the pattern for the U.S. muskets.

With the decision in 1842 to drop the production of flintlocks, there was also an order to inspect and classify all of the msukets made before 1832. Eventually, all muskets were placed into four categories- the last being all arms made before 1812, also the unserviceable arms of later periods and all damaged arms not worth repairing. Those (108,821) would be condemend, collected at depots for sale at public auction from between $3.00 and .40 each.

In 1833, the British had 440,000 India Pattern muskets of which 176,000 were serviceable, and with percussion bieng gradually introduced in the
1830's leading to the P1839 percussion muskets, the British sold off numbers of the India patterns. Mexico bought a bunch.
Unlike the U.S. the British preferred to make new percussion arms rather do a lot of converting as did the U.S.

IMHO, the issue or "Besses" or "Towers" is complicated by the 1840's federal purging of old arms, what might have been serviceable out of the oldest of flintlocks made before 1832 that might have been purchased by state or local militias, the old stuff purchased in England by U.S. and C.S. agents scrambling in 1861, and the rarer "great grandpap's musket" taken down from the mantle and turned in to 1861 Confederate arms drives.

Or side questions such as what did Texas do with the India Pattern "Besses" taken from Santa Anna?

And twist the pretzel a little bit by the loose jargon and terminology of Period accounts as to exactly what does a "Tower musket" actually refer to?

Others' mileage will vary...

Curt

[ACo.]

Re: Brown Bess

Herr Schmidt makes some excellent points but I refer you to "Message from the Execttive of the Commonwealth, with Accompanying Documents, Showing the Military and Naval Preparations for the Defence of the State of Virginia, &c. &c.:" released in June of 1861. It can be read in it's entirety at:

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/message/message.html

Many, many flintlock muskets of various types, to include US flint muskets made by Harpers Ferry, Springfield and the various contractors, Virginia muskets by the Virginia Manufactory of Arms in Richmond (the State Armory), and...... English flintlock muskets - at least 700 were issued to troops in Western Virginia and Putnam County (both of the later now in West Virginia and probably considered of questionable loyalty to the Commonwealth at the time.) They do not say what model of "English Flint Muskets" they are talking about but Virginia, at least, did issue them, they were in inventory.

All of the above being undoubtedly true, would I consider carrying one? Only if you were reenacting one of those two units in a very early war event. And here is a percussioned Bess that appears to have been done for military use:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/admin/product_details.php?itemID=19336

A very interesting topic. It does teach to never say never....

[rebpvt1864]

Re: Brown Bess

thank you all for the great information. i'll look into it to clarify. its great!!

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Brown Bess

There were a lot of flintlock muskets available but I think the issue is you are going to have to document (as Curt pointed out) that they were .75 caliber muskets not .69.

The Brown Bess had a .75 bore on it where as all American made muskets were .69 because they were based on French muskets supplied during the revolution until the introduction of the .577 round.

I think it is unlikely that a State arsenal would have a supply of .75 on hand that long after the revolution due to logistical issues.

Now as pointed out Texas had access to a large number of captured Mexican Brown Bess' in the 1840s but once they became 'America' would they have kept them in the state arsenals? And even if they did would they have issued them to units going east of the Mississippi?

Well if you ever find proof positive come back and tell us.

[Daniel]

Re: Brown Bess

There is a well known account of one unit possibly using the Brown Bess during the Ft. Henry/Ft. Donelson action. Capt. Jesse Taylor wrote about the regiments at Ft. Henry, "The best equipped regiment of his command, the 10th Tennessee, was armed with old flintlock 'Tower of London" muskets that had done the state some service in the war of 1812." Some years ago I ran across a list of equipment that was issued to one company of the 10th on July 4, 1861. - 80 flintlocks, 80 cartridge boxes, 80 brush and picks, 160 gun flints, 80 gun slings, 8 spring vises, 8 ball screws, 4 saber belts and 84 knapsacks.

A historian at Fort Donelson once told me a story about someone who found some pretty strange rocks near Ft. Doneslon. They were gun flints! Probably not related to the 10th Tenn. But an interesting story none the less.

Dan Stewart

[ACo.]

There were a lot of flintlock muskets available but I think the issue is you are going to have to document (as Curt pointed out) that they were .75 caliber muskets not .69.

The Brown Bess had a .75 bore on it where as all American made muskets were .69 because they were based on French muskets supplied during the revolution until the introduction of the .577 round.

I think it is unlikely that a State arsenal would have a supply of .75 on hand that long after the revolution due to logistical issues.

Now as pointed out Texas had access to a large number of captured Mexican Brown Bess' in the 1840s but once they became 'America' would they have kept them in the state arsenals? And even if they did would they have issued them to units going east of the Mississippi?

Well if you ever find proof positive come back and tell us.

Bob, I am very confused by your reply, especially the last sentence, and I quote:

"Well if you ever find proof positive come back and tell us."

If you would read the document at the link I provided, you will see your required "proof positive" that at least two issues of English flintlock muskets (one of 500 and one of 200) were made by the Commonwealth of Virginia at the beginning of the war in 1861. There may have been more, there are many issues of "flint muskets" with no description as to origin. Also, anyone who has studied the history of military arms of the 19th Century knows that .75 was the caliber of all English flintlock muskets from at least the days of England’s King William III at the end of the 17th Century (that’s 1689 – 1702) until the early Victorian era with the Pattern of 1842 percussion musket. Therefore, the English flintlock muskets issued by the Commonwealth in 1861 were .75 caliber. Why is that a problem? The English muskets saw front line service with US forces through the War of 1812 (longer if you count the Marine Corp who used English muskets as their primary weapon until after 1815) and ammunition (probably the English standard.68 roundball) would not have been a problem. Maybe sufficient old stock was available for the 700 (at least) muskets but if not, moulds were available or could easily be made new and casting balls is not work for a rocket scientist, the work was done by boys at the US Arsenals (1,500 balls per day per boy) and by contractors so we can believe that Virginia (and maybe other states) could at least find workers capable of running ball for Commonwealth troops preparing for War. If that casting was going to tax the Virginia Ordnance Department, they could have opted for using the US standard .64 ball for the .69 caliber muskets in the .75 musket. There is proof positive; all you have to do is look where the information is provided. Now, to answer again Tyler’s original question at the beginning of this thread, should Civil War reenactors carry English flintlock muskets? As I said in my first post in this thread, only in VERY limited circumstances.

As an interesting side note (sorry to run on) the issue of 500 English flint muskets (with 500 extra flints and 10,000 cartridges, I wonder....) was to Colonel John McAusland - Putnam County. McAusland was a graduate of VMI and was teaching mathematics and artillery tactics there under Jackson. He went to Charlestown with Jackson and the VMI Cadets to keep order during the trial and execution of John Brown. His regiment recruiting in Putnam County (now West Virginia) became the 36th Virginia and he went on to become known as "Tiger John". I'm sure everyone here is aware of his later carrier as a Confederate General, but if not:

http://www.wvculture.org/hiStory/journal_wvh/wvh4-1.html

He died in 1925, the second to last surviving Confederate general.

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Brown Bess

Bob, I am very confused by your reply, especially the last sentence, and I quote:

If you would read the document at the link I provided, you will see your required "proof positive" that at least two issues of English flintlock muskets (one of 500 and one of 200) were made by the Commonwealth of Virginia at the beginning of the war in 1861. There may have been more, there are many issues of "flint muskets" with no description as to origin. Also, anyone who has studied the history of military arms of the 19th Century knows that .75 was the caliber of all English flintlock muskets from at least the days of England’s King William III at the end of the 17th Century (that’s 1689 – 1702) until the early Victorian era with the Pattern of 1842 percussion musket. Therefore, the English flintlock muskets issued by the Commonwealth in 1861 were .75 caliber. Why is that a problem? The English muskets saw front line service with US forces through the War of 1812 (longer if you count the Marine Corp who used English muskets as their primary weapon until after 1815) and ammunition (probably the English standard.68 roundball) would not have been a problem. Maybe sufficient old stock was available for the 700 (at least) muskets but if not, moulds were available or could easily be made new and casting balls is not work for a rocket scientist, the work was done by boys at the US Arsenals (1,500 balls per day per boy) and by contractors so we can believe that Virginia (and maybe other states) could at least find workers capable of running ball for Commonwealth troops preparing for War. If that casting was going to tax the Virginia Ordnance Department, they could have opted for using the US standard .64 ball for the .69 caliber muskets in the .75 musket. There is proof positive; all you have to do is look where the information is provided. Now, to answer again Tyler’s original question at the beginning of this thread, should Civil War reenactors carry English flintlock muskets? As I said in my first post in this thread, only in VERY limited circumstances.

As an interesting side note (sorry to run on) the issue of 500 English flint muskets (with 500 extra flints and 10,000 cartridges, I wonder....) was to Colonel John McAusland - Putnam County. McAusland was a graduate of VMI and was teaching mathematics and artillery tactics there under Jackson. He went to Charlestown with Jackson and the VMI Cadets to keep order during the trial and execution of John Brown. His regiment recruiting in Putnam County (now West Virginia) became the 36th Virginia and he went on to become known as "Tiger John". I'm sure everyone here is aware of his later carrier as a Confederate General, but if not:

http://www.wvculture.org/hiStory/journal_wvh/wvh4-1.html

He died in 1925, the second to last surviving Confederate general.

"English Flint Muskets" do not tell us if they were or were not Brown Besses (?).

I am sure Curt can correct me on this but until the introduction of the interchangeable parts P1853 Model Enfield it is my understanding that the British Government did not have a large number of weapons on hand waiting to be handed out. The government keep barrels, lockplates and other metal parts on hand which were handed out to gunsmiths to be mounted on stocks when needed. When the fighting was over they were recalled to the arsenal to be salvaged. So there wasn't a 'military-industrial' complex in Jolly Ole making and selling muskets overseas like weapons manufacturers do today.

Part of the question is where were the muskets acquired from? Were they 'private purchase', were they refurbed battlefield pickups? And if private purchase what is to say they were Brown Besses?

A second logical question is why would the State of Virgina keep on hand a small quantity of "wrong" caliber muskets when America was virtually awash with surplus .69 caliber American made muskets (not even counting the thousands of Charlevilles supplied during the revolution). In numbers far in excess of anything needed by the Regular military. The logistics alone of providing spare parts and ammunition would seem to recommend that those weapons be disposed of as soon as possible after the revolution.

That flintlocks were issued is beyond a doubt. But you are asking about a very specific weapon. One which never was an 'official' frontline weapon with USA armed forces. I'd just like to see something a little more definative than a "English Flintlock Musket" before I'd accept a seeing a regular CSA unit on a battlefield toting around Brown Besses.

[ACo.]

Bob, I had begun a long and detailed reply citing documented examples but once started I realized that discussing details with someone who has not done the research to back up his statements is wasted effort. Please do not take offense. You need to do some up to date reading, your limited statements thus far show that what knowledge you have is based on misunderstandings of both US and British Ordnance practice. The fact that the US Government not only had good British muskets that were surrendered by British troops during and at the end of the Revolution seems to escape you and you do not have the slightest clue that the US National Government PURCHASED surplus standard English flint muskets and carbines (“sold out of service” marked) FROM England during the 1790s in an effort to keep US forces armed with good quality, standard pattern arms. The English pattern muskets WERE front line issue to some US regulars and Marines as well as the US Navy and continued on issue to state troops as well. True, the French musket was preferred because there were so many and there were ample arms in stock in the early period (pre 1800) to keep most troops armed with that type, but not enough that the English arms were disposed of as superfluous as you seem to think. You also seem to forget that even more English military flint muskets were captured during the War of 1812. Keep in mind that some states, including Virginia, had English pattern muskets made both here and abroad for their use. Also, it was not until the 1830s that the US was “awash with surplus .69 caliber American made muskets”. Indeed, a large percentage of the early US muskets made by contractors and the National Armories of Harpers Ferry and Springfield were considered so bad that they were condemned and broken up for scrap (not spare parts, they were that BAD) or surplused. Also, the Indian Wars and the War of 1812 took a heavy toll of the remaining early US made standard arms. At the beginning of the War of 1812 it was noted that the arms shortage was critical, despite the fact that there had been thought to be many “good and serviceable” arms in storage. Oooops.

The ammunition “problem” as you seem to see it was not as big a problem as it would be with a breech loading firearm - it was a non-issue. As I said in my earlier post, balls were easily cast and new ammunition made to supplement existing stocks so let’s get over that.

Repair parts for English flint muskets were impossible to find? There were plenty of parts left from damaged arms that had been broken up for the purpose of repair.

I can not for the life of me comprehend where you came up with:

“"English Flint Muskets" do not tell us if they were or were not Brown Besses”

What other English flint musket was there besides, specifically, the Brown Bess in it’s many different variations through the end of the India Pattern’s reign in 1854? As far as I know, the English were not building any other kind of musket for their troops or, for that matter, anyone else, maybe you can prove otherwise. Yes, early on the US Government did purchase English-made Charleville pattern locks from the British lock maker Ketland, but English made Charleville muskets do not exist and you can’t tell me that the Point of Forks Arsenal transferred to Harpers Ferry English-made trade guns (Hudson Bay fukes?) for issue to the military or that the US Marine Corps used these Indian Trade Guns either.

One last thing, you said “it is my understanding that the British Government did not have a large number of weapons on hand waiting to be handed out” and this is true but used and even new muskets were sold and otherwise sent to Allies and colonies at various times. The English did have large numbers in store for issue in the Tower and at other locations throughout the British Isles as well as the rest of the Empire as is evidenced by the fact that over 200,000 flint muskets were destroyed in the fire at the Tower in 1841, speeding the development of a new pattern percussion musket, the M1842, also, incidentally, in .75 caliber. Also, remember that while England did occasionally sell or provide others with arms (Mexico and Spain along with the early US come to mind) NO BRITISH GOVERNMENT OWNED ARMS were sold or given to either side in the Civil War.

For up to date information on the use of Brown Bess muskets by US troops I refer you to the following reference works:

“American Military Shoulder Arms Volume I: Colonial and Revolutionary War Arms” by George Moller (ISBN: 0870812866 / 0-87081-286-6)

“American Military Shoulder Arms Volume II: From the 1790s to the End of the Flintlock Period” by George Moller (ISBN: 0870813080 / 0-87081-308-0)

“US Flintlock Muskets, and Their Bayonets, the Early Years 1790 – 1815” by Peter A. Schmidt

“US Flintlock Muskets, and Their Bayonets, the Later Years, 1816 through the Civil War” by Peter Schmidt

The first two by Moller are no longer in print so, unless you are VERY well heeled, you will want to look them up at your local library, or you may need to resort to inter-library loan, they are hard to find. Volume II will be the most pertinent to the discussion. The Schmidt books are still in print and easy to find. Let us know what you find.

[ACo.]

Re: Brown Bess

And let me state for the third time, English flint muskets should ONLY be carried by a Civil War reenactor at a time and place where it can be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that such guns were in fact carried during the War by the unit being portrayed, otherwise they should be left at home where they belong..