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  • Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

    Colleagues,

    I would like to open a discussion on the subject of Engraved Enfields for the Reenactor. In my experience, I have not seen this put into practice by the Confederate Reenacting community. I know there is special attention paid to "De-Farbing" P53 Enfields ; which may entail the placing of various importer stamps and marks. The JS Anchor Holy Grail mark seems to put the "cherry on top". However, the engraving of the Butt Plate, and in some cases stamping of the stock, in my opinion, would truly put the finishing touch on a Confederate Reenactors Firearm.

    There are so many other marks, known and unknown, which also place the P53 in the Confederate realm of use. Caleb Huse, Sinclair and Hamilton, Issac and Campbell are known Confederate Agents/Partners when it comes to weapons provenance. Other marks as the Diamond C, TC over a Star and large Block letters on the weapon also confirm Confederate use.

    I will withhold my intellectual property regarding the subject upon feedback from the community. Does this topic interest you?

    I look forward to an open discussion.

    Respectfully,

    Michael Collins
    Michael S. Collins

    15th Tenn. Vol. Inf. Co "G"
    Robert L. Miller Award Recipient No.26 May, 2003

    "Trust in God and Fear Nothing."
    - Brig. General Lewis Addison Armistead

  • #2
    Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

    Have you read this thread? If you have information that is not covered and you want to share please do.

    Jim Mayo
    Portsmouth Rifles, Company G, 9th Va. Inf.

    CW Show and Tell Site
    http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/j_mayo/index.html

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

      Hello Michael,

      There are a number of previous posts concerning the various "editions" of the P53 Enfield. There is a thread concerning a Barnett Enfield restoration project currently active. I believe your question pertains to the availability of reproductions from a wider variety of manfacturers. If this is indeed the case, Todd Watts provides serveral different versions. Check this previous post as an example of his work: http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...farbed+Enfield He seems to add, or be willing to add, additional commercial firms producing the Enfield for export. Another company that furnishes de-farbed Enfields is James River Armory. You might want to check out these two examples and see what they currently offer as well as explore what might be possible to add to their line.

      Regards,
      Cpl. Skip Korte
      17th MO. Vol Inf.
      Company G
      Western Blues Mess

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

        Hello Jim,

        You are faster on the reply than I... seems as we are on the same track. (Didn't mean to duplicate the thread link.)

        YOS,
        Cpl. Skip Korte
        17th MO. Vol Inf.
        Company G
        Western Blues Mess

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

          Thanks Gents!

          And forgive me if this was a duplication. I saw it as a request for open discussion on the topic of Enfield Engraving. I do own one and have several others with the various Hallmarks. My focus was on the Engraved Serial Numbers associated with Confederate provenance.

          I do know that a book is in the works which will cover all the different marks; known and mysterious. I will need to speak to Corky Huey about it's status...

          Perhaps I should re-title the topic: Let's discuss other Markings on Confederate Enfields?

          I will read though the suggested post and comment shortly.

          Cheers.

          Michael Collins
          Michael S. Collins

          15th Tenn. Vol. Inf. Co "G"
          Robert L. Miller Award Recipient No.26 May, 2003

          "Trust in God and Fear Nothing."
          - Brig. General Lewis Addison Armistead

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

            Colleagues,

            I read throught he prescribed post and found no measure about the Serial Number engraving. ( Exception: Post number 31 shows a 1st Series Serial number:
            http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/...+defarb&page=4 )

            Perhaps I should clarify my position.

            Early in the war, the South sent Caleb Huse to England with sole purpose of procuring Firearms fo the Confederacy. (Forgive me if this is known to some) The first arms procured went though a rigorous inspection process intended to establish content and quality. By my research, the first thirty thousand or so Enfields were engraved with a Serial number and recorded. (The late Howie Madaus held some documentation which identifed a Serial Range of arms to an Alabama Regiment!)

            There were three known series; A, B and some C. I have not seen a Reenactor (Other than in post #31 )with a defarbed musket use the Serial Number as part of the muskets impression.

            Shall I present this to Todd?

            I look forward to all replies.

            Cheers.

            Michael Collins
            Last edited by Illinois Rebel; 01-28-2009, 02:58 PM.
            Michael S. Collins

            15th Tenn. Vol. Inf. Co "G"
            Robert L. Miller Award Recipient No.26 May, 2003

            "Trust in God and Fear Nothing."
            - Brig. General Lewis Addison Armistead

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

              I have been engraving numbers and sometimes letters to CS version Enfields for a while now. I typically try to use part of the gun's actual serial number to aid the owner in identifying it or remembering his serial number, but sometimes due to the number available I don't like it and then use the owner's address number, zip code or phone number to obtain a somewhat personalized number. And then sometimes I just throw on any old number combination I think of and feel like engraving, usually involving less "curves" that are more difficulty to engrave.:p

              I apply either the JS anchor or S anchor CS buyers marks to the stocks. I may be able to duplicate othe rmarkings if I can ever get my hands on an original to study to get the size and design just right. I shy away from just trying to copy markings from photographs because I don't have the same "feel" for the marking as if I actually see it and touch and measure it. Having stamps made is time consuming and costly so adding more variety to my Enfield stamp collection is slow to come about although I am always looking and thinking about the new versions I might like to try.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                Hallo!

                IMHO...

                Adding to where our collective knoweldge now rests on Period weapon markings is always a good thing. Post away!

                And when copying the markings on an original weapon it is best to copy the markings on the original weapon.

                The only negative is when markings become spurious, even though they are a Period Correct marking. Meaning a Sinclair & Hamilton stamping would be correct only for a weapon handled by Sinclair & Hamilton.
                Meaning, there is a so-called "de-farb" service that appears to have a habit of adding markings for the sake of adding markings to the point of the wrong markings on the wrong guns.
                Or for that matter, adding a "regiment and "rack number" to the tang of a buttplate in a regiment that did not have have their weapons so marked might be neat or cool, but it is still... "spurious" and "incorrect. ;) :)

                Curt
                Curt Schmidt
                In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                -Vastly Ignorant
                -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                  That is my worry, Curt. I take lots of pictures and notes about guns I study to try to group markings correctly. One "defarb" I recently got from a customer to "de-defarb" had a BSAT roundel on the stock as well as a crisp "LAC" along the toe of the stock. What surprised me was this came from a well-known sutlery that really ought to know better. It can even go the other way because another customer brought me his new shiny LAC defarb he got from "the old man" that had a lovely LAC lock and pretty shine with the LAC markings on the wood pretty decently done. The gun was polished nice and bright, but "the old man" failed to stamp the LAC proofs on the barrel. The customer said that when he asked "the old man" about it the reply was "not all LAC guns were proofed." WTH!? I stamped his barrel for him at no cost just to make it right. (I hate to think someone is unhappy about their piece after paying all that money because they will always have that sick dissatisfied feeling every time they look at it.) Since nobody really knows with any certainty what the "rack/lot/inventory/buying" engraved marks really were on the guns today it is reasonably safe to just use a number that seems in the range of correct markings. I have seen a lot of these that have markings on stocks stamped in such as a 24 over a 7 with a line between them. What was that and more importantly when was it added and by whom? My guess is that some Regiment or Company someplace inventoried the guns in that manner and those markings survive. BUT - and this is a big BUT, was it an English unit before the gun was shipped States-side, or was it an English unit or Indian unit and that gun only came over here long after the Civil War ended? It is not uncommon at all to find markings on equipment that has been over-stamped and new markings added signifying at some point the item changed ownership either unit-to-unit, or army-to-army or nation-to-nation. I am reasonably certain just by personal knowledge of many periods of weaponry that some Civil War era items would have had some of these numbers left over from previous owners whether because they came out of unknown arsenals, or were parts-guns, or battlefield-acquired. Sometimes a strange mark can allow us to just make up a little bit of a story to tell to spectators asking questions to add some flavor to our stories. If that's your bag.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                    For what it's worth, there is no reproduction out there that should get a "diamond C" mark. Nearly all of those barrels with that mark are 40" long (not 39" like a standard Enfield) and the breech area is much larger, more octagonal and longer than a standard Enfield breech.
                    [SIZE=1]Your most humble and obedient servant,[/SIZE]
                    [SIZE=2]Tim Prince[/SIZE]
                    [I]Member CWDCA (The Civil War Dealers & Collectors Association)
                    Member CWPT (Civil War Preservation Trust)
                    Member The Company of Military Historians
                    Member SABC (Society of American Bayonet Collectors)
                    Hiram Lodge #7 F&AM
                    [/I][URL=http://www.collegehillarsenal.com]collegehillarsenal.com[/URL]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                      Tim,

                      You are absolutely correct. The Diamond C mark will be discussed in the new Enfield book at length.( This Mark was an inspectors Stamp simular to the JS Anchor Hallmark.

                      I have three Enfields with the DC mark which also have other Confederate Hallmarks. Originally, I had hoped to discuss all Confederate markings in this post. However, it may seem prudent to keep it to the 39" Barrel and the known markings to keep it simple.

                      For the record, the 40" Barrel is consistently called a Colt Barrel. This is not the case. Rather, this 40" Barrel is Spanish in origin. This too will be discussed in the upcoming book...

                      Cheers.

                      Michael Collins
                      Michael S. Collins

                      15th Tenn. Vol. Inf. Co "G"
                      Robert L. Miller Award Recipient No.26 May, 2003

                      "Trust in God and Fear Nothing."
                      - Brig. General Lewis Addison Armistead

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                        Here is a link to some pictures of my Schuyler Hartley and Graham imported 1862 Tower P53 on the British Militaria forum.

                        http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.c...53-Proofs.html

                        As far as the diamond C goes, it is my understanding that weapons so marked are Canadian in origin as that marking represents "Dominion of Canada" and are probably not ACW used weapons but were imported post war.
                        Bryan Beard
                        Virginian

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                          Mr Collins,

                          Are you the author of this new book?

                          Regards,
                          Mark Latham

                          "Mon centre cède, impossible de me mouvoir, situation excellente, j'attaque." ~Ferdinand Foch

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                            "As far as the diamond C goes, it is my understanding that weapons so marked are Canadian in origin as that marking represents "Dominion of Canada" and are probably not ACW used weapons but were imported post war."

                            Bryan,

                            Hello. I'm afraid that is not so. One of my 40" Enfields is JS Anchored, has a Serial Numbered Butt-plate and has the large J in the Stock. The second 40" Enfield I own is JS Anchored and has an SC in the Comb signifying South Carolina usage. The last 40" Enfield I own is ID'd to a 7th NC Cavalryman. All of these are Diamond C marked. The full story will come out in the upcoming book...
                            Michael S. Collins

                            15th Tenn. Vol. Inf. Co "G"
                            Robert L. Miller Award Recipient No.26 May, 2003

                            "Trust in God and Fear Nothing."
                            - Brig. General Lewis Addison Armistead

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

                              Originally posted by M.Latham View Post
                              Mr Collins,

                              Are you the author of this new book?

                              Regards,
                              Mr. Latham,

                              I am not the Author of the new book. I do, however, know the fellows who are putting it together. And I do know that there is enough information for two books.

                              I have had the priviledge of leaning much of what I know about Confederate Firearms from Charles Foster and the late Howie Madaus. I am very wary of the use of the word expert when it comes to this aspect of the Hobby. I humbly submit that I am a continuing Student in these matters...

                              The book will be worth the wait.

                              Respectfully,

                              Michael Collins
                              Michael S. Collins

                              15th Tenn. Vol. Inf. Co "G"
                              Robert L. Miller Award Recipient No.26 May, 2003

                              "Trust in God and Fear Nothing."
                              - Brig. General Lewis Addison Armistead

                              Comment

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