Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

Hallo!

For those trying to follow along...



Curt

[M.Latham]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

Mr. Collins,

Ah, very good then.

This book has been in production for awhile now, perhaps we shall see some hards facts rather than empirical collector knowledge. The MacRae papers will render more than a few nuggets I'm sure.

Regards,

[Illinois Rebel]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

Curt,

Bully to you; well done! I will post the same shortly. Does your Musket have any Confederate Hakllmarks?

Mr. Latham,

The so called "empirical collector knowledge" is what is driving the book! Privately held documentation, which belongs to the empirical collectors, will shed light on all those silly little marks which make us avid collectors.


Thank you for your comments and participation.

Cheers.

Michael Collins

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

The pic posted by Curt shows the most often overlooked mark by defarbers:
The indexing mark at the junction of breech and tang, sometimes topped by a crown.

Anyone wanna talk about that 'un?

[Illinois Rebel]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

John,

Are you referring the the line stamped in the metal joining the Breach plug and Barrel?

Michael Collins

[M.Latham]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

John,

I know it as a "witness" mark, you see then on some English and US, Austrian barrels, somtimes on top of the breech somtimes underneath...

The reason for it is simple, to prevent the breech plug from being under-tightened or over tightened by giving a reliable mark to rotate the breech plug to after removing it, and re-installing.

Regards,

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

Diamond C mark means it's Colt!

I contacted Geoff Walden some years back about a relic site with a 40" barrel Enfield with a Diamond having a C stamped in it. Also having "flats" in the breech end of the barrel like a Springfield 61.

Turns out this was one of a couple of thousand + made for Colt, to sell to the Government, but the deal didn't go thru...

"This is one of the
special-order Enfields that Colt had made to his own specs in 1861 and/or
early '62. These were supposed to be like a Springfield, so they had 40-inch
barrels with breech flats, 24 gauge (.58 caliber)."

I have seen several of these guns made in Birmingham, but this is the first
London gun I have seen. And according to Colt's records, these should *all*
have been made by Potts & Hunt. Before these photos, I had seen nothing at
all to support the Potts & Hunt contract, except Colt's own records."
Geoff

Kevin Dally

[Tim Prince]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

To those asking about "the book", when I spoke to the authors at the CW show in Nashville in December, they claimed that their goal had been to have it out for the Baltimore show in March this year, but had more realistically placed their goal to have it available by the summer Gettysburg show. I truly hope that they attain their goals this time.

As previously mentioned, this book will make use of many sources from all over the world and will feature pictures of many wonderful, privately held CS imported arms.

Everyday we learn more and more about these imported arms, and find out that many of the pieces of conventional wisdom that we hold as truth is not correct. I have mentioned before that I have owned and seen a handful of British military P-1853 Type III's with Pre-Civil War dates AND with Sinclair-Hamilton import marks. At the end of last year I obtained an 1855 dated P-1853 Type I that was also SHC marked.....All things that we have been taught should not exist.

[M.Latham]

Tim,

Taught by whom?

Look guys, I know Corky and Co. have had this book in the works for awhile now. And I'm sure that it will be a good addition to the knowledge base we now have.

However I really must object to "letting the cat out of the bag" by certain folks by revealing things in the book early. Let the book come out and we can all see what it contains. Let the authors retain their intellectual property until then.

You'll just have to be patient I guess.

Regards,

[Illinois Rebel]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

Mr. Latham,

Objection noted by this certain Folk. However, there has been no forum present before to openly discuss this knowledge. Yes, Gun Shows and other History gatherings are opportunities to share this knowledge. Yet, the cat has been out of the bag for awhile for those who are students. I choose to share my knowledge here. This is a scholarly Forum with a wealth of accumulated knowledge.

Remember, this is only one Hallmark with Confederate provinance. There are dozens of others in que. However, I will keep my focus and efforts on this mark now.

As for it being Colt; not so. It has long been thought that because of the 40" Barrel. Colt and Associates had the ability to turn Barrels well before the outbreak of hostillities. They were just like anyone else when it came to meeting the need for Arms in the North; it was a Contract model. The 40" Barrel is Spanish.

The Diamond C mark is not unlike the JS Anchor stamp in that it was a mark made during inspection at a destination along the way to the Confederacy. These were not condemned, nor were they Colt...

Respectfully submitted,

Michael Collins

[Illinois Rebel]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

Colleages,

For the sake of argument, I will post this now. I will have a better shot of the Spanish Enfield Rifle breach shortly.

That is not a Colt Barrel on the P53.

Respectfully,

Michael Collins

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

John,

Are you referring the the line stamped in the metal joining the Breach plug and Barrel?

Michael Collins

Yes. I called it an indexing mark (more of a 20th Century term). But, as noted, is also called a witness mark for ensuring the barrel is tightened to the same spot when/if the breech plug is removed.

Reproductions typically have a witness mark underneath. However, original Enfields typically have them on top, frequently topped by a small crown. However, I have never seen this mark applied by anyone "defarbing" a reproduction, making me wonder why this mark has been overlooked.

I have discussed this issue in a previous thread.

The topic of "authenticizing" reproduction Enfields is a well-worn subject here on the A-C. I would recommend doing a forum search on "Enfield" or even "Monster Enfield" and you will turn up a lot of information, some of which is being rehashed here.

[Illinois Rebel]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

John,

Yes, that is an indexing mark. And you are correct; it is often overlooked. I have pulled the breach plug on my Shooters on occasion and have been thankful that the mark was there.

It seems this post has taken on a life of it's own. Thank goodness for Free Speech...


Respectfully,

Michael Collins

[M.Latham]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

Mr. Collins,

OK, to play devil's advocate on the Colt barrel question.

Given the strict requirements of the British Gun trade in regards to proofing, please explain why the breech on these non-Colt "Spanish" made tubes are proofed by English inspectors. On Spanish made P53 and Spanish made M57 arms are English proofs ever present?

Regards,

[Todd Watts]

Re: Engraved Enfields and the Reenactor...

I have heard of "the book" being compiled now for about 2 years off and on and am anxiously awaiting it. I am no Enfield scholar by any means, finding myself constantly deferring to scholars such as Mssrs Prince and Barry for advice before trying something new, but there is one thing I have figured out regarding the Enfields of the ACW and that is this, "NOTHING IS ABSOLUTE." Mr. Barry has told me time and time again that every time the rules are set in stone regarding these things someone shows up with something to smash that stone. For instance, that SH&G linked above has a TOWER lock and LAC barrel. The "witness" mark as gunsmiths call them today are not found on all of the originals. This line sometimes topped on one or both ends with a tiny crown, or "arrow" for lack of better term is on some, but not all. All of the modern repros do have that witness mark under the barrel and breech which is standard practice among modern gun makers. Back then, a real gunsmith or armorer before removing the breech piece form the barrel would have "witnessed" the 2 pieces so he'd know where to retighten to, but unless the barrel was going to be disassembled there would have been no reason to "witness" it unless that particular maker just wanted to do it during assembly.

I have been thinking of offering some "odd-ball" Enfields for sale such as those "parts-guns" having miss-matched parts or the unmarked locks and barrels that turn up from time to time, but am not sure what the demand would be for those.

(Incidentally, Blockade Runner the other day acquired some neat things at an estate sale including a real Colt Mfg. Dragoon, Spencer carbine, Spencer rifle and a real P-H Whitworth. All 3 are in like-new shape having only been fired perhaps a couple of times, cleaned and put up before the poor owner passed away. Check their site for the Whitworth if interested and call the regarding the others. They didn't list those 3 for some reason. (Hope this is not a serious breech of rules to mention this, but I am going to put it on an auction site next week and thought the AC guys might like a heads-up in case they want something different. http://www.blockaderunner.com/other/hotnewitems.html )