Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

[Eric Fair]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

What a great thread! I remembered seeing some of these images from the LoC site as well and I've often thought that knit goods are definitely underrepresented. I guess I'd be interested in following the esteemed Mr. Wickett's query - would the button down, "cardigan" look be a more popular pattern of the period than a pullover knit sweater (and I know the images themselves don't exactly provide a representative sample of mid-nineteenth century fashion :))?

Great images!

[Terry Sorchy]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

John,
Nancy is knitting me a sweater from a period pattern for just such climates. As far as the strecthing goes it all depends on the size needles that were used for the garment. Many today use much bigger needles than those in the time frame we portray. If the neddles are small then the stiches are tiny and if wet will actually retract and get smaller.
Cheers
Terry Sorchy

[FortyRounder]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

After you've put on your cardigan, don't forget your snazzy coat.

(LC-DIG-cwpb-04646, "Col. J.B. Swain, 11th N.Y. Cavalry.")

Col. Swain probably had plenty of time to design a distinctive coat, since, according to one author, he was usually "in quarters, ill" when his regiment went into action.

[Tabbico]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

John,
Nancy is knitting me a sweater from a period pattern for just such climates.
Terry Sorchy

Hi Terry-

Where did Nancy find the pattern, pray tell!!!

[KarinTimour]

Gentlemen:

Great pictures, though of course, I want them both next to each other and in high def so I can see them better. But from what I can see:

1. The image from the Adams Express office looks a smidge longer than the first one. It looks as though that sweater ends about the top of the hip and the first one ends just barely over the top of his trousers, as a dress vest would.

a) perhaps one sweater is longer than the other by a smidge
b) perhaps the Adams Express guy has a longer torso than the first guy
c) perhaps the Adams Express guy (who is clearly using the pockets) has just stretched the sweater out a bit because he puts stuff in the pockets.

2. It does look like the same design of sweater, but I've not seen a pattern in women's magazines of the time for a cardigan. Do we know what units these guys were in? Were they mustered from the same area? Or did they serve in the same battles? Could be something they both got from a sutler? Or something sold in their hometown or got out of a box from home? Or the pattern might have been printed in a local newspaper or circulated among the local soldiers' moms.

3. Looks to me (with very little to go on) that the buttons are probably not made with shanks.

4. I also suspect (again with very little to go on) that the sweater has a dropped shoulder, just as a shirt would have. It's a common shoulder on ganseys, which were being made in this time period, as well as on men's shirts.

5. It's a farily form-fitting sweater -- notice how it distorts around the button holes in the Adams Express guy, but even in the first one, you can see the stress around the button holes. This sweater isn't smoothly layering over the body, it's pretty closely hugging the body.

6. I'm fascinated with the behavior of the lighter colored edging. At the bottom of the Adams Express company guy's sweater, it's pulling taunt and flat to his hips. I would have expected that under the pockets, if there were any give on the sweater that those rounded edges on the front edges would be rolling up, towards the viewer. But they are pulling back, sort of buldging under the pockets, as though the lower edge of the band were tighter to the body than the upper edge of the band. This suggests something to me, see point #6 below.

7. Cardigans (knitter speak for sweaters that button up the front) are tricky because of the need for a firm foundation for buttons and firm button holes for them to go into. In sewing this is less of an issue because fabric doesn't tend to be as easy to distort and get pulled out of shape as knitwear. But the stress on the buttons/button holes has caused most designers to use one of two basic techniques for making the placket and the button holes. When the sweater is made, leave a wide space down the front where the buttons will go and either a) knit a separate band of stiffer knitting which will be sewn on to either side of the two sweater fronts. This is called a button band and is knit with a much smaller needle, to give stiffness and firmness to the button band. Alternatively, the knitter turns the sweater sideways and simply picks out stitches on the edges of the gap, and knits the button band right on to the sweater.

Both techniques have challenges.

8. But the behavior of that band strikes me as intersesting, both along the bottom edge and the space between the buttons where it has pulled. I'm wondering if the entire sweater, or maybe just the band, is period double knit? It seems to me that would explain the way those parts of the sweater are pulling. This is a technique where you use a very fine yarn, and literally knit two independent sheets of knitting, with a space between them. In modern knitting, we usually knit one piece of fabric at a time. In double knitting, you have basically "front" and "back" stitches cast on to the same needle and you knit them simultaneously. So the resulting sweater has two layers, almost like knitting a sweater with a knit-in liner at the same time.

I suspect that's what we're seeing here. Other knitters have done more double knitting than I have -- what do you think? Would that result in the behavior we're seeing on the bottom band and on the band around the button holes?

I know I got a little technical there, feel free to speak up if I lost any body along the way.

Neat images, hoping we're going to see more of them,

Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Tabbico]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

Karin, from these images and others I have seen, I'm thinking Brioche stitch.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

Here is a reference to the sweater pic:
[Brandy Station, Va. Capt. Samuel A. McClellan, Capt. J. Henry Sleeper, Capt. O'Neil W. Robinson, all of the Artillery Brigade, 3d Corps, and Alfred R. Waud, artist correspondent].

Gardner, James, b. 1832, photographer.


CREATED/PUBLISHED
1863 December.

SUMMARY
Photograph from the main eastern theater of the war, winter quarters at Brandy Station, December 1863-April 1864.

NOTES
Reference: Civil War photographs, 1861-1865 / compiled by Hirst D. Milhollen and Donald H. Mugridge, Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress, 1977. No. 0243

Title from Milhollen and Mugridge.

[Brandy Station, Va. Capt. Samuel A. McClellan, Capt. J. Henry Sleeper, Capt. O'Neil W. Robinson, all of the Artillery Brigade, 3d Corps, and Alfred R. Waud, artist correspondent].

Gardner, James, b. 1832, photographer.


CREATED/PUBLISHED
1863 December.

SUMMARY
Photograph from the main eastern theater of the war, winter quarters at Brandy Station, December 1863-April 1864.

NOTES
Reference: Civil War photographs, 1861-1865 / compiled by Hirst D. Milhollen and Donald H. Mugridge, Washington, D.C. : Library of Congress, 1977. No. 0243

CALL NUMBER
LC-B817- 7085


REPRODUCTION NUMBER
LC-DIG-cwpb-03693 DLC (digital file from original neg.)
LC-B8171-7085 DLC (b&w film neg.)

[BenjaminLDavis]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

Great thread, ladies and gentlemen! We will be seeing a few sweaters amongst
the also under-represented shawls (for men) in the very near future! Terry, I cannot
wait to see you in your new finery!

[KarinTimour]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

Dear Polly:

Brioche stitch! Wow, thank you for sharing that, your breadth of research is much greater than mine -- I've mostly found smaller things, rarely have gotten to examine sweaters and larger stuff.

That being said, if anyone knows of sweaters we can go study, there are quite a few of us who'd jump at the chance.

Thank you John and Jason for posting the images, it's a real thrill to see some good pictures of knitted goods.

Sincerely,
Karin Timour
Period Knitting -- Socks, Sleeping Hats, Balaclavas
Atlantic Guard Soldiers' Aid Society
Email: Ktimour@aol.com

[Tabbico]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

An article appeared in Military Collector & Historian, Vol.
XLVII, No. 2, Summer 1995 which states the following:

"Knit Sack Coats

Odd as it may seem, the Quartermaster Department also provided
knit shirts, knit jackets, knit trousers and knit sack coats as items
of issue, even though they never appeared in the 1861 Army
Regulations or the 1865 "Quartermaster's Manual." The New York Depot
reported having purchased some 580,144 knit sack coats during the
War. Fortress Monroe reported having 752 and New Orleans 21,070 knit
sack coats on hand for issue on 30 June 1865. [Official Records, pp.
275, 276, 285.] What did these knit sack coats look like? None are
known to exist in private or public collections. However, the
author recently uncovered a 9th plate tintype which my very well show
such a knit issue sack coat. Unidentified, the soldier is posed
before a patriotic backdrop and wears what would appear at first
glance to be merely a basic sack coat with roll collar and standard
brass buttons. But closer inspection reveals a distinct knit
fabric, as you would see on a sweater. There is a
single exterior pocket low on the left breast (reversed in the
tintype format). Although not conclusive, the details of this image
are indeed compelling."

[Jefferson Guards]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

Here are a few images of a knit wool vest that is going to be auctioned off in a few months:

http://www.whitakerauction.com/~whit/gallery/index.php?level=album&id=289

[Tabbico]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

And what is really interesting, is the vest is NOT knit - it is crocheted in a single crochet stitch!

[PogueMahone]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

Regarding the sack coats:
Here's a well-known pic of three cavalry officers (one of my favorites!).

I'll see what I can do about zooming in on some of these rings.

Enjoy!

Is the round-faced fellow on the left wearing a shirt? I don't see a collar under his vest.

Any ID on these officers?

The hat on the man standing looks like a cheap sutler row variety.

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Fed Officers: Its cold; wear a sweater!

Is the round-faced fellow on the left wearing a shirt? I don't see a collar under his vest.

Any ID on these officers?

The hat on the man standing looks like a cheap sutler row variety.

Here is the info on that one:

TITLE: Westover Landing, Va. Col. James H. Childs (standing) with other officers of the 4th Pennsylvania Cavalry

CALL NUMBER: LC-B817- 7464[P&P]

REPRODUCTION NUMBER: LC-DIG-cwpb-03852 (digital file from original neg.)
LC-B8171-7464 (b&w film neg.)

RIGHTS INFORMATION: No known restrictions on publication.

SUMMARY: Photograph from the main eastern theater of war, the Peninsular Campaign, May-August 1862.

MEDIUM: 1 negative : glass, wet collodion.

CREATED/PUBLISHED: 1862 August.

I noticed that lack of collar, too. I figured, if he were wearing a banded-collar shirt, it probably wouldn't be show.

Yes, Col. Childs' hat does look a bit floppy. However, after the Friday morning gully-washer at IPW, I think there may be some advantages to a hat with that shape... not to mention the fact that a hat might just take on that shape naturally after one-too-many soakings! :stormy: