Altered Drawers

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Altered Drawers

Hallo!

Just back from riding Don Mattingly's horse "Junior" who for some reason does not respond to "Whoa!" but rather prefers "Ho!"

Ah but...

The question remains unanswered as to primary source material for the docking of drawers?
(Hint... the referencing an undocumented citation in a (contributory) compilation or compendium is not documentation unless the claim is documented.)

And, what makes "sense" to we moderns, or what are reenacting practices, falls short of answering the historic question.

While it is true that undergarments were a novelty for some lads- especially those where "18th century" customs lingered on in terms of no drawers as the long shirt tails of the shirt sufficed- IMHO we need to keep in mind that our modern notions about creature comfort and what is "warm and cold" are not always the same as Period ideas (the big one being the issuance of wool uniforms through the Spanish American War and even WWI regardless of climate).

And even Period accounts can be a tease, as are personal druthers and likes/dislikes. Unless a soldier mentions what is going on, even a soldier not drawing drawers from his clothing allowance may mean that he did not wear them. It could also mean that he was wearing civilian drawers sent from home.

Curt

(Growing up with an elderly border born in the 1850's my mother remarked that the gentleman always wore "long underwear" under his clothes closed at the ankles, wrists, and neck- year round.)

[Bill]

Re: Altered Drawers

Gentlemen, I have no documentation at all, other than soldiers had access to scissors and pocket knives. I have always cut off my drawers just below the knee, for no other reason then I find them more comfortable. It's been my experience that bunching in not a problem. The only issue is to insure the drawers don't ride up you leg when you put on your trousers.

This is certainly not an "Authenticity Folder" quality reply, but I do believe it may help answer Mr. Trent's question.

[Duff]

Re: Altered Drawers

In response to the point of drawers bunching up I am somewhat skeptical. Depending on how short they are cut I don't see why they would bunch up any more than modern-day boxer shorts. Unless you are wearing ultra-hip emo-tight issue trowsers, they will probably bunch up when you first pull up you pants, but gravity will eventually flatten them out.

[Hank Trent]

Re: Altered Drawers

In response to the point of drawers bunching up I am somewhat skeptical. Depending on how short they are cut I don't see why they would bunch up any more than modern-day boxer shorts. Unless you are wearing ultra-hip emo-tight issue trowsers, they will probably bunch up when you first pull up you pants, but gravity will eventually flatten them out.

I can only speak to the annoyance of using regular drawers without them being tied securely, but then this brings up another question. How short are we talking? For some reason, I was picturing knee-length or a little below, so there'd still be a fair amount of fabric, but one could of course cut them much higher and they'd be of no more trouble than modern boxers.

As Curt asked, are there any primary sources available on this, to give a clue? Living in a nation that's used to boxers, it's hard to judge period mindset on something like this.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Bob 125th NYSVI]

Re: Altered Drawers

Well I can think of a very practical reason why soldiers did it because it happens to me.

OK no delicate way to say this, I sweat like a pig, especially in warm (anything above 60) weather.

There have been many times that I have torn the crotch out of the drawers because the combination of sweat and the size of my calves (6' 3.5" 235 lbs) has in effect caused the drawers to be 'stuck' in place (I don't need to tie).

Ergo under the the proper combination of stickiness and movement something has to give. Thank goodness to date is has been either the sticthing or the material in the crotch of the drawers.

I have even tried sizes way too large for me to alleviate this issue. However when I cut one pair to above the knees I was able to wear it for a whole season as opposed to 1-2 events.

Not a problem on parade just when I'm in the field.

Can't be the only guy it ever happened to so I'm pretty sure someone with the same issue would have hit on the same solution rather than let the marbles become hambuger.

[Bill]

Re: Altered Drawers

Gentlemen,

I have a question. We have lots of documentation, in photos and from surviving artifacts, that some Civil War soldiers modified their hats, trousers, frock coats, great coats, sack coats, shell jackets, blankets, and just about every other piece of clothing and equipment they were issued. Should we assume, that just because there isn't any documentation, that none of these soldiers also modified their drawers?

I'm sorry, but I find that almost impossible to believe. Especially when there is so many things you can do with the cut-off legs from a pair of draws. Not to mention, at least some of us, find the cut-off drawers more comfortable. Is there some reason to assume that none of the actual Civil War soldiers feel the same way we do?

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Altered Drawers

Fellows,
I can relate one situation that I experienced at a reenactment that I know for a fact thousands upon thousands of the originals also experienced.

At picketts mill some years back (2001 maybe??) some of the water had a little bit too much chlorine or bleach or some such "cleansing" chemical. Cleanse me it did. I spent the better part of saturday night sitting across a fallen pine tree while I passed everything I had eaten in the last month. My full length drawers of Friday had been considerably shortened by Sunday morning. This line of thinking may go against AC policy, but 19th century folk being what they were, I doubt many would pass on to the home folks that a shirt tail or a piece of drawers had been sacrificed when a case of the scours came along.

others mileage will indeed vary...

[Hank Trent]

Re: Altered Drawers

Well, then, here's a serious question. If shorter drawers work just as well or better than long drawers in warm weather--and we know they do from modern life--why were long drawers the norm? Why didn't folks just make shorter drawers from the start, in both civilian and military life? After all, a couple generations earlier, they only had "underwear" in the form of shirt tails down to about where modern boxers go anyway.

So barring unique or temporary problems such as mentioned above in this thread, what is/was the advantage of long drawers? The only reason I wear them at reenactments is because you're "supposed to." Is that why the majority of people were wearing them back then too? And if so, how strong a motivation is that? Strangely enough, it's strong enough to make me do it when reenacting, against all logic and habit.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Silas]

Re: Altered Drawers

Ticks, chiggers and other creepy crawlies come to mind, Hank.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Altered Drawers

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

We are skating out onto the thin ice of where the lack of historical knowledge and the "I thought of it now, I could have thought of it then" justifications are eating away at the standard of striving for documentation.

When everything is possible, nothing is probable.

Historically, we have little to give us doubt that the old adage about "do, make do, or do without" when applied to both Period culture AND material culture sometimes allowed men to adopt and adapt to their immediate or particular special needs and druthers.

As shared, a perceived need, a pocket knife, a needle and thread, and a clever or ingenious idea as to how to solve a problem, are all that a lad needed.

However, while true, that can open and keep open a Pandora's Box.

For example, I could conceivably, possibly, maybe and get away with it- say take an extra blouse and cut off the sleeves for "summer wear" to be "cooler" in the Georgia sun of summer.
I could then sew the one open end of a sleeve closed, add a pull tie to the other end, and add belt ties to both ends so I can wear my new "corn bag" around my waist for carrying extra rations.

Or, I could use an extra cartridge box sans tin for carrying my sutler "sheets" on my belt as a "ready box" for flux emergencies.

Or, carry my fire-makings in a spare cap box on my waistbelt.

Or, cut the butt out of my drawers to make it easier and faster to "open up" in the panicked rush of a flux attack.

Or...

But again, the "standard" the AC Forum strives for is the research and the documentation end of probability, not imaginative or even a possible happenstance because we can think of it now and it "makes sense" to we Moderns.

Curt

[Hank Trent]

Re: Altered Drawers

Ticks, chiggers and other creepy crawlies come to mind, Hank.

Good point. I guess that problem is dealt with in the modern world by using bug repellant, and in the pre-drawer era by... knee high stockings? leggings? I'm not well-versed in Rev War era clothing.

But ironically, that advantage would make long drawers more necessary in summer than winter.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Bill]

Re: Altered Drawers

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...


But again, the "standard" the AC Forum strives for is the research and the documentation end of probability, not imaginative or even a possible happenstance because we can think of it now and it "makes sense" to we Moderns.

Curt

Curt,

Trust me. I thought long and hard before making my second post on this thread. I understand the need for research and documentation. The problem is, many of the things we are interested in, had no interest to the actual soldiers. I doubt many soldiers wrote home to tell the folks they decided to fold down the collar on their frock coat; but we know many did. We know that from photos. The photos of Civil War soldiers in their drawers are few and far between and surviving samples are even more rare. Not many pairs of used drawers got put away, in the cedar chest, for posterity!

One of the joys of reenacting is the opportunity to step back into life of the Civil War soldier, this is especially true in the more authentic wing of the Hobby. It seems to me, that our experiences help fill in the blanks, where documentation leaves off.

As you like to say, "Other people's mileage will vary."

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Altered Drawers

Hallo!

Moderator hat off- but still mindful this is, after all, the "Authenticity Discussion" folder...

"One of the joys of reenacting is the opportunity to step back into life of the Civil War soldier, this is especially true in the more authentic wing of the Hobby. It seems to me, that our experiences help fill in the blanks, where documentation leaves off."

Exactly.
But the operative factor is that that can be "experimental archeology" as we try to breath live into static and dead artifacts through primary and secondary research and documentation as to how they were actually used.

My point was, is, that we need to be cautious if not reserved and guarded when we "backdate" an unsupported and undoucmented modern idea to the life of the Civil War soldier. What may be a "I thought of it now and I could have thought of it back then!" works only in the context that that choice would have been able to have been from within the culture and material culture of the Civil War soldier.
Meaning, while a cut-off blouse sleeve could be easily fashioned into an efficient and effective meal or rice bag to be tied around the waist along the lines of a Viet Cong "rice" bag of 100-some years later; and while a CW soldier could have thought to make such a storage container and may have even done so; I do not think thousands or hundreds of thousands of CW soldiers did so.

IMHO still, the problem with unresearched and undocumented Leaps of Faith is that all too often the jumper lands in the chasm (because of differing Mental Pictures) rather than making it across.

Like cloning dinosaurs or mammoths, our efforts are in bits and pieces, and we need to "fill in" DNA sequences with frog DNA. Sometimes frog works okay, sometimes insect DNA creates monsters. ;)

And yes, others' mileage does vary... ;) :)

Curt
Viet Cong Rice Bag Mess

[Hank Trent]

Re: Altered Drawers

Apparently the actual documentation is coming from somewhere but no one seems to be able to cite a source. Ah, the frustration of unfootnoted proclamations of what was done, as if the author is such an authority his word must never be questioned.

In addition to the article noted toward the beginning of this thread, it shows up in Jarnigan's catalog: "Evidently the drawers seem to have seen universal widespread service, worn long as issued during the cold weather and being cut off below the knee in warm weather."

Here's a book The U.S. Army in the West 1870-1880, about the western post-war army which has footnotes before and after the drawer-cutting statement:

To alleviate some of their discomfort, soldiers frequently indulged "in various modifications, improvements and otherwise." (34) The most common of these alterations was to cut off the legs of the drawers above the knees.

Google books makes it almost impossible to find corresponding footnotes. Anyone have this book to see if the citation would happen to include the drawers specifically, or if it's only citing the quote about soldiers modifying their clothes in general?

Either this is a reenactorism that's just being passed along, or there's actual evidence out there, that writers are basing their statements on.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Carolann Schmitt]

Re: Altered Drawers

Extant clothing would be another source of documentation that drawers were shortened. However, without detailed provenance, those extant examples won't prove a soldier shortened the drawers; they'll only prove that someone shortened them.

Further, close examination would be required to determine approximately when the extant drawers were shortened: when they were first constructed and worn, or decades later for theatrical purposes.

Interestingly, it's not that difficult to find written documentation for similar mundane alterations for citizen's garments. There are several women's diaries and journals that mention sewing projects like this. Women often recorded details like this. I have not yet found a man's diary or journal that recorded similar mundane sewing information - citizen or soldier.

Hank wrote:
Well, then, here's a serious question. If shorter drawers work just as well or better than long drawers in warm weather--and we know they do from modern life--why were long drawers the norm? Why didn't folks just make shorter drawers from the start, in both civilian and military life?

Maybe they did; it's not a subject I've had time to research (yet). I do have a pair of original drawers in my collection with rather short legs. The drawers have been extensively patched and mended, but I can't recall if they were constructed at that length, if they had been shortened, or if they were just worn by a short man. :) I'll take a look at them when I pull them out for display at the Conference in two weeks.