Steel Shortage

[lukegilly13]

When I first started reenacting I made the common mistake of buying the cheapest products I could find. Since I was in a cavalry unit we all purchased revolvers. One of my first purchases was a brass framed 1851 navy colt revolver.
Why am I posting this in the authenticity folder???? One of the older guys in my unit explained to me that due to the "shortage of steel" in the country, revolvers were mass produced using the brass frame.

Are the brass framed revolvers really a result of poor times, or are there other reasons for the substitute of metals? Furthermore, if it is due to the increase in demand for steel, would you see more brass as the war went on...making a '51 colt be more likely to be steel and the brass is just an overly represented/overly reproduced farbism?

Thanks in advance for the history lesson.

[Secesh]

Re: Steel Shortage

I think it was more of a lack of steel in the Southern industry than the North. I have seen brass framed CS revolvers, tho' I must confess I do not know the make/model, etc., not being a handgun expert....

[FloridaConscript]

Re: Steel Shortage

Luke,
I'm at work and don't have echoes handy, but I'd check there for a crash course. Leech and Rigdon, Griswold and Gunnison among others used brass, but smarter than folks than I will chime in I'm sure.

[1st Maine Trooper]

Re: Steel Shortage

Neither Colt nor Remington ever produced revolvers that were sold to the Federal Government with brass frames. There were some Southern arms makers that did produce framed revolvers, Leech and Rigdon, Spiller and Burr and Griswold and Gunnison all
come to mind. However, they were not simple clones of the Colt as is peddled today by arms makers.
The Spiller is essentially a brass framed Navy caliber Whitney clone with an iron instead of steel cyliinder.
The Griswold, is a "Colt" clone in that it is an open frame revolver, has a brass frame, and a round barrel.
The Leech and Rigdon, was a clone of the `51 Navy, but with all iron frame, barrel and cylinder. It did have brass backstops and a brass trigger guard.

The currently held belief is that the brass and iron were used in place of due, due to a shortage of steel.

Dave Myrick

[Jimmayo]

Re: Steel Shortage

Brass is also much easier to cast and work with. Small gun makers may have had difficulty produceing steel frames.

Just something to consider.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Steel Shortage

Hallo!

As already shared, this is "more" of a CSA discussion.

And as shared, a matter of the South's being less industrialzed in terms of iron/steel production moreso than being financially poor.

Not all "Southern" revolvers were brass framed. Although in smallish numbers, Augusta Machine Works, Columbus Fire Arms Mfg, Co, Leech & Rigdon, Rigdon & Ainsley, J.H. Dance & Brothers, W. H. Henley, Tucker, Sherrard & Co., made iron framed "Colt" type clones) revolvers.

Plus, we have to be "careful" about saying "brass." At times, CS "brass" (particualry "red brass") was closer to bronze or yellow/white bronze than the pure brass modern Italain and Indian makers use.

Using more brass as the War went on?

IMHO, no really. IF anything there is fewer and fewer production of guns period as the War goes on due to declining materials as well as Yankees overrunning plants/factories, and armories.
Plus there are only so many iron or bronze church bells, and brass tea kettles that could be donated to the War Effort. ;) :)

Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a CS revolver that started out with an iron or steel frame and switched over to brass due to supply.

On the reproduction side, it is often just a matter of profit. Meaning, there were no brass framed .44 M1851 Colt Navy's or brass framed .44 Remington
M1863 Army's.

Curt

[47thNYReb]

Re: Steel Shortage

My understanding is that brass was easier to machine than steel and would not wear out the few precious machine tools that the south had. I am looking for where I read this, but maybe Curt can chime in first.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Steel Shortage

"As already shared, this is "more" of a CSA discussion." - I meant to post it that way. Sorry for the poor wording.

"My understanding is that brass was easier to machine than steel and would not wear out the few precious machine tools that the south had."
I never considered the lack of steel as creating a lack of replacing worn out machinery...this gives a new look...will be interesting to read more about. A lack of maintaining capability v/s a lack of capability.

"Brass is also much easier to cast and work with. Small gun makers may have had difficulty produceing steel frames. "
This could also make them quicker to mass produce for larger gun makers.

I appreciate the info guys!

[RJSamp]

Hallo!
Plus, we have to be "careful" about saying "brass." At times, CS "brass" (particualry "red brass") was closer to bronze or yellow/white bronze than the pure brass modern Italain and Indian makers use.


Curt

Curt, I love you like a brother.....but just what is 'pure brass'.....and why are you relating it to bronze yellow/white bronze? Brass and Bronze are Alloys....nothing Pure about them. And they are radically different alloys.

(As a brass musician, I can tell you right off that they call them 'brass' instruments for a reason....and they're not called bronze, steel, iron, wood, plastic, etc. instruments for some very real reasons.)

FYI: Brass is 70% Copper, 30% Zinc.
Bronze is 70% Copper, 30% Tin.

Red or Rouge brass is 95% copper, 5% Zinc. Used for Henry Rifle metallic cartridges, amongst other things.

Yellow/white bronze is 80/20 Cu to Sn.

But it's not brass.....

Copper doesn't heat form well....it's basically a limp noodle. brass on the other hand, does very well with heat forming....beating it into shape.....then water quenching....it also 'pulls' and bends well....it's more malleable than copper.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Steel Shortage

Hallo!

Correct, brother.

Thanks for the alloy breakdowns.

I did a poor job of trying to share that the strict modern definition of "brass"
(aka yellow brass) as being "pure" (70/30 copper/zinc) while some of the Confederate brass varied enough on the copper pecentage to give the alloy a distinctive reddish cast unlike what the Italian repro's have.

Or that white/yellow bronze is sometimes substituted for yellow brass in the furniture of longrifles.

Or the discussions/arguments that the original Henry and Improved Henry rifles used yellow bronze rather than brass for their receivers.

But yes, references to "brass" are tricky and I should not have referred to 70/30 brass alloy as "pure."
Such as references to 'brass' in the King James Bible are more than likely other bronze alloy, or copper, rather than the strict modern definition of "brass."

Thanks for the correction and clarification, 'preciate it.

Curt

[fahnenschmied]

Re: Steel Shortage

Copper doesn't heat form well....it's basically a limp noodle. brass on the other hand, does very well with heat forming....beating it into shape.....then water quenching....it also 'pulls' and bends well....it's more malleable than copper.[/QUOTE]

As a smith, I have found there is no cupric alloy - bronze, brass, tombac, whatever, that works so well as copper. Copper is more malleable than its alloys and generally much easier to anneal.

Bronzes are just as good as iron and many steels for making such things like revolver frames - and they can be CAST instead of forged, then machined. But bronze is much more expensive than iron or steel.

Don't confuse the "cast steel" seen on the barrels or frames of some old 19th century revolvers with steel that is cast into shape. It refers to the material, which was forged, filed, and milled into shape. You can accurately cast a bronze revolver frame that needs minimal file work to finish. You couldn't cast steel or wrought iron like that in the time. Cast iron is too soft and brittle for such work too.
I think at least one Rebel revolver maker desired steel for his cylinders, unable to procure good steel, they substituted iron bars, heated and twisted in a belief this would "lay the inclusions" - the impurities that make visible striations and weak areas in poor quality iron. So, steel was in short supply in one area of Southern pistol production, but it was substituted in at least one case with iron. But as I am not terribly up on the intricasies of Southern arms manufacture, I am unwilling to venture a guess as to who made tham that way. Spiller and Burr, perhaps? In any case, you will see slight twisty marks on the sides of the cylinders...

Dave Stone

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Steel Shortage

Hallo!

Spiller & Burr revolvers have iron cylinders where the "twist" is visible.

Curt