Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

[Mcouioui]

Question which intrigues me since the visit of the battlefield of Mansfield, where the 18th. LA and the 28th. LA Were her shoulder to shoulder.
According to all that I know and read, the 18th. Was equipped with Colombus dépôt jackets since 1863 and. The 28th. Was equipped by the Texas dépôts, how to explain the different supply for these two regiments? Is there an error of my part?

[Mgreer]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

you should talk to Kiev Thomason he is pritty good at reaserching that kind of stuff

[Mcouioui]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Merci mon ami ;)

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Hi,


Contact Nic Clark, he has done a great deal of research on Louisiana regiments. Thanks


Andrew

[Mcouioui]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Thanks Andrew ;)

[Dale Beasley]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Mon Sha,

I am so glad you enjoyed yourself, while you were here. If there is a "next-time", and I do hope it is, by then I will be Military Retired....we must take you to the Museum at Camp Moore, Louisiana...and to the Museum of the Confederacy in New Orleans.

But to answer your question...please contact Dennis Neal, his pen-name is Boreguard. If he does not have it, he will find out who can.

tu ami,

[Mcouioui]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Merci mon ami ;)

[Cpt Boone]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Mon Sha,

..and to the Museum of the Confederacy in New Orleans.


tu ami,

Dale,

Sorry but it is Confederate Memorial Hall. :D MOC is in Richmond. :baring_te

http://www.confederatemuseum.com/

[mudlark]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Mon ami,

I'm by no means an expert on CS Trans-Miss uniforms & equippage (you might want to consult Phil Graf, Cody Mobley, Fred Baker, or Don Smith), but as far as I can tell, the 18th never wore 'Columbus Depot' jackets per-se.

There is a pretty famous photo of corporal Paul Thibodaux, Co. G, 18th Louisiana wearing what appears to be a gray or 'drab' 9 button frock with dark epaulets, cuff trim, chevrons, and collar trim. That image can be found here

I also ran across a photo of Sgt. F.N. Poche (Co. E, 18th Louisiana) showing said individual wearing what appears to be a dark colored 9 button shell jacket with cuff embelishments.

Likewise, published photos of Pvt. C.L. Van Houton (Co. C, 18th LA) shows a medium or light gray (or 'drab') roundabout or frock, trimmed with dark cloth facings on the collar, cuffs, epaulets, and trousers.

I have no doubt that all of these photos are early war...illustrating garments procured by company 'brass' or through the 'putting out' (commutation) system. The presence of chevrons on Corp Paul Thibodaux's frock dates this photo to Feb. 1862 (per Grisamore's note that Thibodaux was appointed 3rd corporal on St. Valentine's day 1862 before the company moved out to Corinth & Shiloh). This is important especially when considering the history of both units in question;

The 18th Louisiana saw action at Shiloh and was active in the Department of Mississippi and Eastern Louisiana until their transfer to the Department of Western Louisiana circa October 2, 1862. At this point, they would likely have been outside the physical limits of depot supply from Columbus.

To muddy the waters a little bit, there were actually 2 '28th Louisiana Infantry' regiments...Gray's, which saw action in events leading up to Vicksburg, and Thomas', which also served in the Vicksburg Campaign before consolidating with other commands.

For the sake of argument, I'm assuming you are referring to Gray's 28th Louisiana, which was transferred to the Trans-Mississippi department in or around September 1862. (The reigment recieved marching orders to go to Bayou Teche on or around the 20th of Sept 1862 and is noted as being in camp at Brashear city in October '62.

There is limited evidence to suggest that one or both of these regiments were clothed by the depot system during their stint in the Department of Mississippi/East Louisiana, and, if one assumes that Silas Turnbow (who described an issue of clothing featuring a gray roundabout with blue collar and cuffs) indeed received a Columbus depot 'style' jacket in an Arkansas camp in May 1863, it is possible that these men may have been clothed in similar attire. (see Grisamore's mentions of clothing below)

In addition, the earliest mention of Columbus depot 'style' roundabouts in the Dept. of Mississippi/Eastern Louisiana that I'm aware of date roughly to the time these commands were transferred to the Trans-Miss (see Geoff Walden's excellent Columbus Depot article).

Notwithstanding, I believe assigning the above described clothing to the Columbus Depot is suspect. I believe it far more likely that many (if not most) of these clothing items came from Little Rock (in the case of Silas Turnbow's description), New Orleans, or Mobile (in the case early descriptions in the dept. of East Louisiana/Mississippi).

This is right in line with Grisamore's May 7, 1862 statement that

"Our company had just received a new outfit of hats, shoes, pants, and jackets which were run out of New Orleans previous to its capture"

(Grisamore was QM of the 18th Louisiana)

Four months later, while stationed in Pollard Alabama, Grisamore recounts that the 18th had;

"....obtained a lot of clothing, consisting of jackets, pants, shirts, and kepis. The pants and shirts had been made by the kind-hearted ladies of Alabama, who were thinking of their absent mountaineer husbands and lovers and were consequently much too large for our little Creole troops; the jackets, however, had been made by some tailors on contract and were of a good size for 10-year-old boys; the kepis were made of the same material with leather visors that would either stand straight up in front or turn square down over the eyes. They were all made of a species of gray cotton cloth and had they been made of a proper size they would have been of much service to the men."

Complicating the matter even further is the fact that many of the contemporary accounts that seem to point to 'Columbus depot jackets' also match the description of known products of manufacture from all over the 'Western' theatre. (the aforesaid mentions of jackets with facings match Wharton's description of the later Houston Depot jacket pretty well)...so I believe it to be more likely that many depots were issuing roundabouts with branch of service trim at various times througout the war...my point here is that it seems clear that not all these accounts describe 'Columbus Depot' jackets. Furthermore, Grisamore's own statements of clothing 'run out' of New Orleans and Jackets made by contract tailors of gray cotton (a cloth not known to have been used by the Columbus manufactory) seems to point away from Columbus as the depot of issue for these troops.

What is clear is that by the time of the Louisiana Overland Campaign (mid-1863) both units were equipping themselves by whatever means necesscary. Here again, Grisamore provides insight;

Camp Bisland, April 12, 1863. During our encampment here and a t Fausse Point, we were furnished with a lot of Confederate grey cloth, which was distributed amont the different camps. Col. Armant ordered me to go to St. Martinsville to a tailor who was represented as proficient in his art...A bargain was made, the tailor came to our camp at Fausse Point and took measure of the men very minutely, and, in the course of human events and rainy weather, we got some of the coats. They proved to be in the very height of fashion, and the man who was lucky enough to be off duty and had time to promenade around the camp with his new coat was universally admired by everyone who saw him. The coats were admirable fits, but somehow or other the men had forgotten how to put on fashionable clothes since they had been campaigning-and ran their arms through their sleeves right up to the elbow and pulled the garment so high up behind the neck that the buttons were right between the shoulders....

As a result of this (and the previous experiment) with 'contract tailors', Grisamore records that they;

"...came to the conclusion that we had best make our own clothing in the future, and many of the officers and men who had never threaded a needle soon succeeded in cutting and making fine suits for themselves. There was at the close of our campaign no less than two dozen men who could have beaten all the professional tailors with whom we ever came in contact in fitting up a suit for utility and comfort, although they might be a little deficient in fashion."

I'm not sure if Grisamore mentions clothing again before the Red River Campaign...I'll take a look tonight. For now, I hope this helps!

[boreguard]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Gary your reply is ripe with good information. I to was thinking of Grisamore's book and was remembering the reference's to clothing issue. In fact in one part I think he mentions having purchased a good supply of fabric and having jackets and pants made for the men who needed them. I replied to Mc. in a PM that I think the where abouts of the two units, prior to them coming together prior to Mansfield, would be part of the answer...but that was assuming he was right in that the 18th La. did in fact have Columbus issued uniform jackets. Being away from my home library has me at a disadvantage as memory isn't my greatest asset, but that considered I'm not so sure the 18th La. had Columbus issue jackets either. However, given the theater's respective departments you have to keep in mind that the 18th was more "in between" the Department of the Mississippi and the Trans-Mississippi than wholly in one or the other for a period of time.

That being said Mc.'s question raises good reason to keep in mind we don't know much of the small detail of the daily operations of the Quatermaster systems. I do have one book in particular that I want to pick up when I get home and look at and that's a book written in 1963 by a professor at the University of Texas titled "The Quarter-Master System of the Trans-Mississippi" ( I think I got the title right, if not real close) but it details a lot of daily operations in the Trans-Ms. that would shed a little light.
Dennis Neal

[boreguard]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Hey MC. I promised I'd get back to you with some more information if I could on your question. One reference I have in my library is titled "The Confederate Quartermaster in the Trans-Mississippi" by James L. Nichols and was published in 1964. Dr. Nichols was considered an expert of sorts in his day on neglected aspects of Confederate history. I've not been able to dig deeper (although I read the book years ago) than just simply glancing through the pages looking to see if anything jumped out at me.

The real reason I'm responding back to you however is to post this picture of a shell jacket that was worn by Pvt. Patrick O'Brien of Co. H of the 18th La. He was wounded at the Battle of Bisland on April 14, 1863, was captured and lost his left arm to amputation by Federal doctors. So O'Brien wasn't at Mansfield.

The shell jacket is on display at Camp Moore Confederate Museum and Cemetery located in Tangipahoa, La. Camp Moore was the training, mustering, and place of birth for many La. Regiments from the 4th through the 3oth La. Infantry Regiments.

The jacket is a nine button front and is a faded gray color that has a slight green hue to it. It has tape trim applied to the shoulder epaulets, the collar, and cuff area. It appears to be all handstiched. The buttons are missing. I'll take more pics of the inside when I have time to get it out of the case, but for now these were taken through the case glass.

Enjoy the pics,
My best
Dennis Neal

[boreguard]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Forgot to add pics

[boreguard]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

BTW the material on this shell jacket is a dead ringer for Ben Tarts cassimere jean wool, (I think that's what he calls it anyway) in both look and feel.

[Mcouioui]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

I had not seen photos, it is magnificent, thank you!!! ;)

[roundman]

Re: Different supply for 18th. And 28th. LA ?

Try Don Smith at Trans-MS depot. He worked at Mansfield at one time. He might can shed some light on the subject.
Robert Myers