Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

[Daryl Black]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Only a quick note here -- while I agree with Manning's general conclusions I think we might need to take a look at the response of Kentucky Federals to better understand the response of white Union soldiers to the EP. There was anger about the changing nature of the war among many of these men. Officers tried to resign and quite a few regiments did not reenlist in 1864. The level of post-war racial violence in Kentucky being studied by Patrick Lewis suggests a complex response to emancipation in the post war world. Anyway. Patrick, chime in here if you will. Please excuse me if I've misread any of the above posts -- I read them hastily.

[Mgreer]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Hank I have a few book on black civilians during the early and mid 19th century and during the war. The Blacks in the north that supported Lincoln were in the minority most supported Garret Smith before the election but during the war looked on him as someone who was not a friend of the movement but could help get things done. It was better him than a southerner or a peace Democrat. As for the Emancipation Proclamation from what I have read it seems as most looked on it as a first step in a series of steps to gain equality. It would have turned out disastrously if he had freed all the slaves at once.

[SavageReb]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

I am one of the Boys in Gray, this just my 2 cents. The Emancipation Proclimation, FREED NO ONE. I agree with CROCKETT, It was UNCONSTITUTIONAL, and was a War Measure, to keep England and France out of the War.
If it was to "free The Slaves", Why did'nt it Free the Slaves Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, Even the District of Columbia there were Slave holders. According to the U.S. 1860 Census, Maryland had over 87,000, New Jersey With over 18,000, Delaware with over 2,000, and the District of Columbia, YES the Capitol, there was over 3200 slaves. That's over 120,000 SLAVES in the UNION!!
It's Documented that Grant and Sherman owned Slaves. Sherman made the remark "That good Help was hard to find". And Grant stated in 1862 and I QUOTE " If I thought this War was to abolish Slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side". Few folks know that General Lee, said almost the same words.
One more kind of funny/ironoc thing on Slavery. I was at Stones River Battlefield 5-6 years ago. We we're at the the Cemetery, and the Ranger who was quite young made the comment, that after the Battle of Stones River, which we all know was Dec. 31,1862-Jan 2, 1863, the "RECENTLY FREED SLAVES WERE HELD AT GUNPOINT AND MADE TO DIG THE GRAVES FOR THE UNION DEAD". The way I took it they were'nt freed men at all.....Again as Crockett said the Proclimation wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, and the War was to free the Slaves was a bunch of Hog Wash...IMO!!
Joey Savage
Huwald's Battery
Tennessee Mountain Howitzers

[PogueMahone]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

I am one of the Boys in Gray, this just my 2 cents. The Emancipation Proclimation, FREED NO ONE. I agree with CROCKETT, It was UNCONSTITUTIONAL, and was a War Measure, to keep England and France out of the War.
If it was to "free The Slaves", Why did'nt it Free the Slaves Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, Even the District of Columbia there were Slave holders. According to the U.S. 1860 Census, Maryland had over 87,000, New Jersey With over 18,000, Delaware with over 2,000, and the District of Columbia, YES the Capitol, there was over 3200 slaves. That's over 120,000 SLAVES in the UNION!!
It's Documented that Grant and Sherman owned Slaves. Sherman made the remark "That good Help was hard to find". And Grant stated in 1862 and I QUOTE " If I thought this War was to abolish Slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side". Few folks know that General Lee, said almost the same words.
One more kind of funny/ironoc thing on Slavery. I was at Stones River Battlefield 5-6 years ago. We we're at the the Cemetery, and the Ranger who was quite young made the comment, that after the Battle of Stones River, which we all know was Dec. 31,1862-Jan 2, 1863, the "RECENTLY FREED SLAVES WERE HELD AT GUNPOINT AND MADE TO DIG THE GRAVES FOR THE UNION DEAD". The way I took it they were'nt freed men at all.....Again as Crockett said the Proclimation wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, and the War was to free the Slaves was a bunch of Hog Wash...IMO!!
Joey Savage
Huwald's Battery
Tennessee Mountain Howitzers

Joey,

You are NOT "one of the Boys in Gray", you are a reenactor. Hank's question is academic, not political. He requested documented citations of unhappy abolitionists.

[Mgreer]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

I am one of the Boys in Gray, this just my 2 cents. The Emancipation Proclimation, FREED NO ONE. I agree with CROCKETT, It was UNCONSTITUTIONAL, and was a War Measure, to keep England and France out of the War.
If it was to "free The Slaves", Why did'nt it Free the Slaves Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, Even the District of Columbia there were Slave holders. According to the U.S. 1860 Census, Maryland had over 87,000, New Jersey With over 18,000, Delaware with over 2,000, and the District of Columbia, YES the Capitol, there was over 3200 slaves. That's over 120,000 SLAVES in the UNION!!
It's Documented that Grant and Sherman owned Slaves. Sherman made the remark "That good Help was hard to find". And Grant stated in 1862 and I QUOTE " If I thought this War was to abolish Slavery, I would resign my commission, and offer my sword to the other side". Few folks know that General Lee, said almost the same words.
One more kind of funny/ironoc thing on Slavery. I was at Stones River Battlefield 5-6 years ago. We we're at the the Cemetery, and the Ranger who was quite young made the comment, that after the Battle of Stones River, which we all know was Dec. 31,1862-Jan 2, 1863, the "RECENTLY FREED SLAVES WERE HELD AT GUNPOINT AND MADE TO DIG THE GRAVES FOR THE UNION DEAD". The way I took it they were'nt freed men at all.....Again as Crockett said the Proclimation wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, and the War was to free the Slaves was a bunch of Hog Wash...IMO!!
Joey Savage
Huwald's Battery
Tennessee Mountain Howitzers

If you aim to say that the EP did not free anyone well it did in a way slaves, who most people at the time thought were ignorant, had ways for finding out information and when they found out about the EP they ran away. Now as I stated before if they had freed all the slaves at once the Border States would have rebelled also. Neither Grant nor Sherman ever owned slaves. Grants father in law owned slaves at a time in his life, but not Grant he was too poor and did not believe in it. Lee on the other hand inherited slaves and yes he did free them but not until Dec. 29, 1862. Please get facts straight before posting, the myth of Grant and Sherman owning slaves comes primarily from the revisionist history taught by a small radical faction of the SCV.

[Mgreer]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

This is a passage out of Frederick Douglas's WHAT THE BLACK MAN WANTS speach,

"I do not know, from what has been said, that there is any difference of opinion as to the duty of abolitionists, at the present moment. How can we get up any difference at this point, or any point, where we are so united, so agreed? I went especially, however, with that word of Mr. Phillips, which is the criticism of Gen. Banks and Gen. Banks' policy. [Gen. Banks instituted a labor policy in Louisiana that was discriminatory of blacks, claiming that it was to help prepare them to better handle freedom. Wendell Phillips countered by saying, "If there is anything patent in the whole history of our thirty years' struggle, it is that the Negro no more needs to be prepared for liberty than the white man."] I hold that that policy is our chief danger at the present moment; that it practically enslaves the Negro, and makes the Proclamation [the Emancipation Proclamation] of 1863 a mockery and delusion. What is freedom? It is the right to choose one's own employment. Certainly it means that, if it means anything; and when any individual or combination of individuals undertakes to decide for any man when he shall work, where he shall work, at what he shall work, and for what he shall work, he or they practically reduce him to slavery. [Applause.] He is a slave. That I understand Gen. Banks to do--to determine for the so-called freedman, when, and where, and at what, and for how much he shall work, when he shall be punished, and by whom punished. It is absolute slavery. It defeats the beneficent intention of the Government, if it has beneficent intentions, in regards to the freedom of our people."

[LWhite64]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Well here is a response from a member of Morgan's Cavalry written in November of 1862 in the Vidette, the camp newspaper of Morgan's command.

"It is a hard matter to get a Union man to acknowledge that this is an abolition war. He will say to you; 'If I thought this was a war for the abolition of slavery, I would not only lay down my arms which I have taken up for the defense of the Union, but I would go into the Southern army...many in the western states speak the same way. Now, any man who pretends to believe that this is not a war for the emancipation of the blacks, and that the whole course of the Yankee government has not only been directed to the abolition of slavery, but even to a stirring up of servile insurrections, is either a fool or a liar. "

[Hank Trent]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Thanks to everyone who's provided sources from the period.

I was really hoping to avoid the usual rants about "my grandpappy wasn't fighting for no slaves" or "Lincoln was a racist, so there you damyankees." Can't we get beyond all the modern spinning and try to understand the diverse people of the past through their own eyes?

As Marvin and others have noted, I agree that southern politicians typically saw the war to be about slavery from the beginning, while many northerners were unhappy to see slavery become a main goal along with their original motivation of preserving the union.

But that certainly wasn't unanimous. What's surprising is how little information is being provided about the viewpoints of abolitionist northern soldiers, the subset I was hoping to learn more about. I'm not really interested in non-abolitionist soldiers' viewpoints, because that subset was so large that their views are easy to find.

Has political correctness so run amuck that no one is allowed to study abolitionists anymore, LOL?

It's easier for me to come up with civilian abolitionist views about the Emancipation Proclamation, because I'm used to searching civilian sources, but I was hoping that some folks who've studied Massachusetts regiments, for example, might have information on abolitionist soldiers' reactions. Oh well.

In a rather inept way, I tried searching just now for "abolitionist soldier" and then in sources that looked like diaries or letters, searched further for "Emancipation Proclamation." From the one quick example I could find, apparently my guess in my first post was indeed wrong, and most abolitionist soldiers felt just like their civilian abolitionist counterparts: almost immediately they hailed the proclamation as a great thing. Seward must have been an anomoly.

October 3, 1862. President Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation received: delivered on the 24th of last month. Thank God, the word has at last been spoken. Light begins to break through. Let the sons of earth rejoice. Sing paeans to Liberty. Let tyranny die. (Diary of Rufus Kinsley)

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[Gallinipper]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Great points all!! I've really enjoyed reading your input.

Mr. Greer, didn't I have the pleasure of making your acquaintance at Olustee a few years back?

Carry on, gentlemen!

Rich Croxton

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Authenticity Discussion Issues relating to authentic impressions.

Please keep the discussion Period, supported or ilustrated by Period documentation.

"If I recall," "I recall," "IMO," and "IMHO" type replies can easily skate on to the thin ice of Modern Politics which are prohibited on the AC Forum. And, as such, do not relate to "authentic impressions" or the Authenticity Discussion folder.

Curt
Moderator

[Mgreer]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

yes you did Mr. Croxton

[Hank Trent]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

From the one quick example I could find, apparently my guess in my first post was indeed wrong,

Here's another, same thing, written by H. Ford Douglas, 95th Illinois Infantry, Jan 8, 1863:

The slaves are free! How can I write these precious words?... In anticipation of this result I enlisted six months ago in order to be better prepared to play my part in the great drama of the Negro's redemption.

My wife suggested that maybe most people realized in September that there was little chance of the south giving up their rebellion in the next three months, no matter what compromise they were offered, so abolitionists just didn't worry about the war suddenly ending with a half-free, half-slave country.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

[PogueMahone]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Hank,

I searched "pro-abolition union soldier" and found this link to "Illinois in the Civil War" by Victor Hicken, starting about page 128:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Dvy0RoWvOyYC&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=pro-abolition+union+soldier&source=bl&ots=sCZBfpxvMg&sig=edHL6OtLAGL1Rhcf5Mmxz3z6zqE&hl=en&ei=4LfLSfaVHMqDtge-6K3OCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA128,M1

Maybe not quite what you were looking for, but some interesting comments.

"I may well be turning black ..."

[Pat.Lewis]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

[QUOTE=Hank Trent;139839]
But that certainly wasn't unanimous. What's surprising is how little information is being provided about the viewpoints of abolitionist northern soldiers, the subset I was hoping to learn more about. I'm not really interested in non-abolitionist soldiers' viewpoints, because that subset was so large that their views are easy to find.[QUOTE]

I've not really chimed in here as yet because my primary research interest are those Union Kentuckians who do indeed react negatively to the EP. So I don't have much in the way of primary source material to add to the question as asked. I might suggest, however, that we clarify our terms here so that we can hopefully find some of the specific things that Mr. Trent is looking for (and I wouldn't mind seeing myself). It is a fine question that deserves some consideration, but we need to focus the discussion.

I take it we are primarily looking for abolitionists in the Garrisonian tradition: immediatist, integrationist, and full of an evangelical fervor against the institution. Who are distinct from most Republicans, Lincoln included, who are first and foremost anti-slavery: free soil men opposed to slavery's expansion and the "slave power" in Congress. Not necessarily (and usually not at all) in favor of social or political racial equality. Many of these men -- especially in the army -- will have become practical abolitionists, thinking that the sooner slavery is destroyed in the South, the sooner the rebellion will end and they can go home. Again, no great concern for blacks as individuals there. We need to be careful not to lump all of these ideologies together, as they are in fact radically different even though they all desire the end of slavery.

What I take it Mr. Trent is looking for are those Garrisonian abolitionists. I would suggest, as he has, that it would be profitable to take a look at the reactions of many New Englanders, as well as evangelical middle-class protestants throughout the North, and members of German '48er regiments. We'll most likely find what he's looking for there.

[Gallinipper]

Re: Emancipation Proclamation: War no longer over slavery?

Marvin,

Fantastic! I thought so. And so glad it wasn't at the other end of a bayonet either. I was "with ye, not agin' ye" at that particular event.... Damn, you fellows marched well.

Rich Croxton