Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

[lukegilly13]

We know it happened some....but it is under-represented?

I have seen several threads lately raise the discussion of whether or not rebs carred yank gear and wore their clothes. I can remember one where someone suggested that men would not want to wear the pants off of a dead man. When reading General Lee's Army by Joseph Glatthaar, I ran across the following documentations:

1. "The federal government also issued superior equipment to its men, and the Confederates liked to 'trade' for it." "I swaped canteens with a prisoner, " a Confederate lieutenant alerted his wife. "Their things are much better quality than ours and our soliders are quite eager to get them. The truth is, all of them have them." This makes me wonder what else they might have "traded."

2. Earlier in the book, soldiers talked about observing dead bodies on the field...naked from being stripped by confederate soldiers. "At Cedar Mountain, Jackson's men prayed on the wounded, "emptying their pockets and stealing their clothes.""

3. "A North Carolina officer commented that, "our men went to work robbing the dead...they were stripped to the skin by our soldiers who have long since lost all delicacy on the subject." "All the Yank dead had been stipped of every rag of their clothing and looked like hogs that had been cleaned."

4. This one is my favorite and goes beyond my imagination. "In some instances, Confederates dug up buried Yankee dead to get their clothes."

This gives us 4 methods Lee's army used to obtain federal gear/clothing. Trading prisoners, Robbing the wounded, stealing form the dead, digging up soldiers.
Is federal gear under-represented? You see the occassional federal cartridge box and cap pouch...but not often a fatigue blouse, forage cap...and according to this, trousers, drawers, undershirts, etc! By the way, all the above references are early war....things hadn't even got bad yet!!!!!!!!!!

[mslaird]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Lets not forget the men in Jackson's command that equipped themselves at Harper's Ferry with not only weapons and accoutrements but with clothing as well.

Sky blue kersey is sky blue kersey. (trousers or other garments) It doesn't matter if it was made at a federal arsenal or it was made by whomever among the countless different sources for confederate goods. I have a letter by Jim Harrison of the 21st Arkansas where he told his mother that he lost his good trousers at Corinth when their baggage train was overrun. He plainly states that he had to purchase a pair of federal trousers and that he believed them to be as good as a good pair of jeans.

A cartridge box is a cartridge box. I don't care one whit if it is a 1839 pattern rifle box, a 1857 pattern elongated ball, a .69 caliber or a Magee and George. It is made of leather and it contains the cartridges that a soldier uses to fight. He is not going to care where it came from, just that it works so I do believe, wholeheartedly, that soldiers on both sides used equipment and clothing from both sides.

Grant issued captured confederate rifled arms to his men, sending their muskets back instead of them. Curtis' men during the Pea Ridge campaign were taking shoes and articles of clothing from dead confederates because they were in rough shape after being in light marching order for well over a month. I can provide enough data to back that up as well if necessary. Confederates and Union soldiers alike took overcoats and blankets from the dead where they could on the night of the 7th of March.

Good thread, it does need to be discussed now and again. If I am gifted with the luxury of time over the next two days I will cull through my research files and pull the necessary documentation for my above statements and the source information for same.

[world_warrior]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

All of this is true,

However, can we also add to the discussion the practice of turning the US Buckles and cartridge box plates upside down? I have seen it done, but was it common place once taking Federal accoutrements or were they just taken off and cast aside? I do Federal so I don't know either way. I would like to hear from all willing to offer opinions on this matter.

Just wondering, Thanks gents,

RJ

[Chad Wrinn]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Regarding the belt Buckle pratice of turing it up side backerds , I have seen many pictures of confederates with the belt plate right side up as well.

[brown]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Chad,
I'm with you on the original evidence I've seen on CS use of US buckles. However, some of the upside down use was cited in an old thread, which I believe also contained extensive discussion about altering the face from "US" to "CS". That might even be searchable.

[Possum]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

One has to remember what a body does when it expires... It flushes out its bowels and I know that I wouldn't want to touch a pair of drawers or trousers after that.

Being from the AOT, myself. Our army did not have the chances to get federal gear that Jeff Davis' Pets (ANV) had, because even when victory was almost secured we would have to retreat.

So, Federal stuff in the Western Theater Confederate ranks would be EXTREMELY scarce in my opinion. Now I know that the ANV is a totally different story.

I hope this helps.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Rocky,

Are you ignoring the rampant use of Federal overcoats in the western CS army? So many that Bragg had to issue an order to have them dyed or be confiscated.

[Jimmayo]

US belt buckle worn upside down.

I think you will find that the topic of US buckles being worn upside down has been pulverized in the following thread.

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10681&highlight=upside

This covers some battlefield pickups of federal gear:

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=798&highlight=federal+gear

All found in less than 4 min using the search function.

There is a lot of information on subjects such as this in the archives. Enough to provide interesting reading for the rest of the weekend. Don't let this resource go to waste.

[Gallinipper]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

While there were no doubt other less-sanguine methods of obtaining enemy gear, in either army, I would think it's reasonable to assume that the average soldier in the AOT had less opportunity for post-battle procurement of said items than did his counterpart in the ANV. Photographic evidence (of battlefield dead and prisoners) seems to support this, although again there do appear to be more of those from the "Eastern" theater also. So, even if we're after a workable ratio, I don't see how we can know for certain.

Jeff Davis' pets were closer to the "dog house" too, weren't they? :D

Rich Croxton

[coastaltrash]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

"One has to remember what a body does when it expires... It flushes out its bowels and I know that I wouldn't want to touch a pair of drawers or trousers after that.

Being from the AOT, myself. Our army did not have the chances to get federal gear that Jeff Davis' Pets (ANV) had, because even when victory was almost secured we would have to retreat.

So, Federal stuff in the Western Theater Confederate ranks would be EXTREMELY scarce in my opinion. Now I know that the ANV is a totally different story.

I hope this helps.
__________________
All for Alabama and the Cause,

Robert "Rocky" Kilpatrick"


Rocky,
Read up on Perryville and the rest of the Kentucky Campaign.

[Charles Heath]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Context. Context. Context.

Which campaign? Which battle? For which event are we studying?

[Possum]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

My apologies, I just read one of my books that mention the Kentucky campaign in it and you were right, AOT did get some Federal gear there.

Again I apologize.

When it comes to federal overcoats in the AOT, I did not realize that. I learn something new everyday.

Thanks pards!

[world_warrior]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

If there are so many opinions and references supporting this practice then why are some confeds dressed down by others at events for representing this apparently common practice?

Again, I am new to the site and aprreciate the thread links Mr. Mayo posted. I enjoyed reading them immensely and helps me catch up about what has already been discussed in the past in depth.

But if everyone knows it happened, why are so many against it being represented in the ranks? Are they perhaps trying for more uniformity because the more I learn about Civil War soldiers is that 'to the letter' uniformity was more sublime concept that actuality and this goes for the Federal troops as well.

RJ

[rbruno]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

I think Mr. Heath hit this on the head. The use of a lot of federal gear has to be looked at in context. Which unit, battle, timeframe, etc. I think the unit is just as important as anything else. Knowing where they were and what they did after a battle would be important in trying to make a "best guess" as to what they "liberated" from the enemy. In Otho Scott Lee's diary, who was from MD and rode with Co. K of the 1st VA Cav, he mentions that after 1st Manassas his camp looked like a federal camp because all of the gear had US stamped on them. This Co. took part in Stuarts charge and took part in campturing camps as the federals withdrew. It is a singular incident when a trooper mentions they had federal stuff. How long that would those items have lasted and would they still have those items in a year. I doubt it, but possible. Just a thought.

[Iceman]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Before the fall of Vicksburg, the Trans-Mississippi Confederates (i.e. Ark., MO, LA ) were reliant upon goods shipped from east of the River; i.e. clothing, gear and rifles. Before the Prairie Grove, AR campaign, the Confederate force that was being assembled for that said purpose were issued rifles manufactured in Richmond, just as an example. Other sources within the O.R.'s makes mention of rifles and ammunition from east of the River being confiscated (i.e. stolen) by the Confederates in Mississippi that were meant for the soldiers on the west bank, etc. But, once Vicksburg fell, those soldiers from AR, MO and Western LA (i.e. west of the Mississippi River) became very dependant upon captured Federal gear to supplement their lack of manufacturing ability. Yes, Texas had shops, but the issue of Texas, their manufacture of goods, transportation, political in-fighting between Texas and the Dept. of the Trans-Miss, could make up an entire book, and is not part of this discussion.

I'm able to quote from The Civil War Reminiscences of Major Silas T. Grisamore, C.S.A.; "On October 5, 1863, a member of Walker's Texas Infantry Division recorded in his diary that the Texans had met Mouton's brigade at Moreauville. The Louisianians 'were mearly all dressed in Federal uniforms that they had captured at Brashear City.", p. 134.

In the book From Desert to Bayou, Merrick says the following; "After going into camp that morning I took a look over the grounds, and found we had captured a great quantity of comissary & quartermaster stores that were located just in the edg of the town of the north side.", p. 50. Merrick then has a sketch of Confederate soldiers opening boxes of QM stores and pulling out pairs of pants, boots, while sketching ragged clothing laying on the ground beside these Fed QM stores, indicating that these Confederates were stipping off their rags and putting on new Fed clothing. This occured around late June of 1863 - before the fall of Vicksburg.

During the fall and winter of 1863, Gen. Richard Taylor was proposing a trade with the Fed's in N.O.; Louisiana cotton in exchange for Federal army stores for his soldiers.

In the collections of the Mansfield State Historic Site, there is a Federal knapsack that was captured at the Battle of Mansura, LA during the end of the Red River Campaign and was worn for the rest of the war by a member of a Louisiana artillery battery. The make of the knapsack is not known. It resembles a Short's pattern, but there are some unique aspects of this knapsack that don't jive with other Short's knapsacks.

By the fall and winter of 1864, Gov. Allen of LA was able to create manufacturing facilities to make hats, shoes and cotton clothing, but by this time all major action west of the Mississippi River was over. The Confederates - especially infantry - would spend the rest of their time in garison, guarding prisoners, etc. By 1865 there are examples of possible English goods being worn by non-Texans in the Trans-Miss, but again, all major campaigning was over with.

So, the question/issue of which theator, time-frame, battle, campaign, etc., for this post would be the year 1863 - the fall of 1864 is the best documented example (so I have found) for the widespread use of Federal clothing and gear being worn by Confederates. Once the Mississippi was seriously being compromised, then finaly with the cutting off of the Confederate Trans-Miss., you find C.S. soldiers depending more and more upon captured, traded or bought Federal goods for the Confederate soldiers in the field.

On a side/personal note; it seems very easy to think of Confederates wearing captured Federal good, using captured Federal weapons, etc. Maybe this is because of popular mythology? But, I think that we should stop looking at Confederates wearing Federal clothing and asking if it's proper to do so - because we know that it is - but rather start to seriously look at Federals wearing Confederate and civilian goods and when it would be proper to do so. Mr. Laird already touched on it with his post; the Federal Army before the battle of Pea Ridge were in rags, barefoot, etc., and were using Confederate clothing to fill their needs for supplies. The 1st Iowa on their way to Wilson's Creek 2 or 3 times raided Confederate supply depots to supplement their needs for clothing. How is it that the Feds are always neat, clean, well supplied, etc., but yet the Confederate always has to be destitute of everything? A hard campaign will take its toll on shoes and gear, no matter which side you're on. Of course, the Feds had better supply lines, transportation, etc., but that's not the point. The point is this; let's try a little harder and use a little bit more common sense with all impressions, not just Confederate. It's okay to be a ragged Fed wearing civilian or Confederate clothing/gear to replace what has worn out. It happened.