Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

[lukegilly13]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Federals using confederate gear:
I have an article written by PD Hunter on March 24, 1865 after being released from Prison....He is discussing Frasier's surrender at Cumberland Gap. Here is what he says:
"When information was recieved that the place had been surrendered some of the men broke their muskets, others burned their regimental flags, and others again clothing, books, and other articles which they thought might prove valuable or serviceable to the Yankees..."

This shows that the federals were not only known to be making use of confederate gear, but the confederates were trying to prevent it.

[Pvt_Sullivan]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Federals using confederate gear:
I have an article written by PD Hunter on March 24, 1865 after being released from Prison....He is discussing Frasier's surrender at Cumberland Gap. Here is what he says:
"When information was recieved that the place had been surrendered some of the men broke their muskets, others burned their regimental flags, and others again clothing, books, and other articles which they thought might prove valuable or serviceable to the Yankees..."

This shows that the federals were not only known to be making use of confederate gear, but the confederates were trying to prevent it.

Luke,

No it doesn't. That quote states that Confederates purposefully destroyed property of a military nature when they were surrendered. Which is something that has occured throughout history. It does not comment on the actual use of captured war material by Union Forces.

The quote gives the perception those Confederates believed that material may be put to use, it does not prove any Confederate Clothing or Accoutrements were used by Union Forces.

Now, there are historical examples of Union Forces utilizing captured Weapons (Grant essentially retooled his army after Vicksburg with captured Enfields), ammunition and food. But the examples of Union Soldiers capturing and putting to use Confederate Clothing are very rare and I disagree that your cited quote is a historical example of that rare practice.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

The northern supply situation would seem to make the use of any Confederate clothing or equipment unnecessary, but on occasion supplies lagged and troops used what they could get. Sherman's campaign through the Carolinas provides one example. I was trying to dig up a source I found for this, but found another:

http://www.russscott.com/~rscott/12thwis/ltalomil.htm

'U.S. Sanitary Commission Stationery' Camp near Fayetteville, NC

March 12, 1865
Dear Sister and the Rest,
I am one among the living and enjoying good health. You see by the heading of this where I am. I came here last night. The whole 4 Corps are here so we can cross the river Cape Fear. Our foragers went down the river. They were mounted on horses and captured a boat, a freight boat. I have not been in the city. They say it is quite a place. The old 12th Wisc. had the honor of taking Orangeburg S.C. We charged through a swamp where the water was up to our knees. I went in the city without firing a gun. It was a real pretty place. We were guard while there, that was during the night and part of next day. We moved out. The next city was Columbia. The 15th Corps guarded there. We got any amount of forage, everything you can think of. From there on to Waynesboro where the 20th Corps was guard. It was a small town. Then to Cheraw. There our one division got in first so they were guard. Then on for the past week I have witnessed some of the heaviest marching I ever did through gumbo swamp. It rained so it overflowed the swamp. We had to wade three days. I was act up to my knees all the time, but I have come out alright. We have lived off the country and had plenty that was good too. We are leaving for some point where communications can be had. Some of the boys are pretty shabby end a good many dress in citizen's clothes and Reb's uniforms, some bare feet, but all have the best of courage. The Rebs are playing as fast as they can and say they can't hold out much longer. If they don't stop us, we will destroy the whole Southern Confederacy.

Will close, goodbye,

Alonzo Miller

Here's another reference to citizen's clothing. I quote the whole entry because it shows that Sherman's foragers were not averse to making captures from their own army, too:

http://www.78ohio.org/Diaries/Capt%20Cyrus%20Marion%20Roberts%20Diary.htm#_Volume_2:__10%20October%201864%20to%207%20May

March 21st Go foraging to the East South East - run across the 24" & 25" Army Corps - com'd'd by Gen. Terry. one of his Divisions being negro troops. we do not meet them until coming in on their rear their supply train was behind and guarded - by negroes - my men are partly clothed in citizens clothing & pass well for rebels. so two of my advance, noticing the negroes unwatchful - charged up and demanded them to surrender - which they immediately did. lying down their guns & traps - several others were captured. my boys exchanged rusty muskets for their bright ones and let them go - telling them the truth of the case. Two orderlies (white) of the Medical Director at Gen'l Terry's H'd Qr's were straggling behind. my boys captured them - and paroled them. they asked to be taken good care of as they said they had been guarding rebel property - and produced memorandum books in which the young ladies at the house had complimented the boys on their gentlemanly Deportment. One of the negroes said he wanted to get back to live with his Massa in Kentucky - that he was draf'd in the Army and was tired of Yankees. bivouac'd 15 miles from Camp - at a Methodist preachers - firing was going on all day & night at the front.

I'll see if I can did up that other reference.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Luke,

1That quote states that Confederates purposefully destroyed property of a military nature when they were surrendered.
2It does not comment on the actual use of captured war material by Union Forces.

3. The quote gives the perception those Confederates believed that material may be put to use, it does not prove any Confederate Clothing or Accoutrements were used by Union Forces.

But the examples of Union Soldiers capturing and putting to use Confederate Clothing are very rare and I disagree that your cited quote is a historical example of that rare practice.

1. No it doesn't. The quote says "clothing books and other articles"...it does not mention of a military nature only and in no way leans toward only destroying military items.
2. I agree with you. It does prove that the confederates were trying to prevent the enemy from obtaining materials that were "serviceable"...to me, the use of the word serviceable implies use. I interpreted this to mean that there was at least some belief by those in charge that the federals would put their captured goods to use.
3. What other reasons do you think might lead confederates to believe the federals would use their serviceable clothes, books, and other articles if they had not done so in the past?

Don't mean to be arguing.....just looking for more discussion.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

1. No it doesn't. The quote says "clothing books and other articles"...it does not mention of a military nature only and in no way leans toward only destroying military items.

Everything an army owns is "military". It goes without saying. Was there specific mention of destroying civilian property? If not, you are assuming.

2. I agree with you. It does prove that the confederates were trying to prevent the enemy from obtaining materials that were "serviceable"...to me, the use of the word serviceable implies use. I interpreted this to mean that there was at least some belief by those in charge that the federals would put their captured goods to use.

The quote leads me to believe these were the actions of the rank and file, not those in charge.

I agree that they probably broke the muskets to avoid having them used against fellow countrymen. However, they burned their flags to avoid surrendering them. These were of no use to the Federals except as prizes of war. Burning clothing and books may have just been the result of agitation and some "mob mentality" once the fires were going.

I imagine those boys were wishing they had not burned their own stuff when they were sitting in prison.

3. What other reasons do you think might lead confederates to believe the federals would use their serviceable clothes, books, and other articles if they had not done so in the past?

Well, let's see ....

"We've just been captured? Well, I'll be damned! I tell you one thing, I'm not gonna let take my gun! I'll just bust it on this tree and show them. Don't let them capture our flag boys! Better to burn it than to let some Yankee use it for a table cloth! For that matter, I'm not gonna let them get my knapsack or those new drawers and socks sister sent me. Let's toss them in a pile and burn them, too!"

Sure, its speculation on my part. I've got no documentation. But it is as solid as any other speculation on here.

[Jim of The SRR]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

1. No it doesn't. The quote says "clothing books and other articles"...it does not mention of a military nature only and in no way leans toward only destroying military items.
2. I agree with you. It does prove that the confederates were trying to prevent the enemy from obtaining materials that were "serviceable"...to me, the use of the word serviceable implies use. I interpreted this to mean that there was at least some belief by those in charge that the federals would put their captured goods to use.
3. What other reasons do you think might lead confederates to believe the federals would use their serviceable clothes, books, and other articles if they had not done so in the past?

Don't mean to be arguing.....just looking for more discussion.

As far as this piece of documentation, since it doe snot say specifiaclly what type of supplies it is, nor even mentions it is Federal supplies, it doe snot support your argument. However, if we could discuss a SPECIFIC time frame, campaign, area, then we can find some examples where Confederates were using captured Federal supplies. (see the past posts asking for 'context')

Jim Butler

[guad42]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

I'm only jumping into this to back up one of the earlier claims that Union Dead were at least sometimes partially or completely stripped. In the book "This Republic of Suffering" Drew Gilpin Faust makes reference to dead soldiers being found with their clothing and personal items removed. I believe that Sam Watkins makes a case for this too in Co Aytch, at least to the point where he admitted feeling uneasy about it and not wanting to take a dead man's shoes, while others had fewer reservations.

Though I realize that the context of this discussion is probably more in regards to ANV and AOT troops, Texans fighting in New Mexico Territory did in fact use quite a bit of Federal Gear, a variety of sources point to this.

-Sam Dolan

[lukegilly13]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

As far as this piece of documentation, since it doe snot say specifiaclly what type of supplies it is, nor even mentions it is Federal supplies, it doe snot support your argument. However, if we could discuss a SPECIFIC time frame, campaign, area, then we can find some examples where Confederates were using captured Federal supplies. (see the past posts asking for 'context')

Jim Butler

It does say what type of supplies. It says "muskets, others burned their regimental flags, and others again clothing, books, and other articles.."
I find it interesting that he said "clothing" and not "uniforms".
My post that includes the quotations states the 'context' as the surrender of cumberland gap...I posted the date of the letter...not the time described....it was September 9, 1863. Sorry about that.

The orignal post was looking at an ANV post and I was hoping to spur discussions on the use of and more specificially the methods of obtaining federal gear. I was looking for examples in all theaters anytime in the war. I just enjoy reading accounts of this nature.

[lukegilly13]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

[QUOTE=PogueMahone;149822]Everything an army owns is "military". It goes without saying. Was there specific mention of destroying civilian property? If not, you are assuming.
That's not really what I meant....I was thinking the personal property of the soldiers. Why would he say "clothing" and not "uniforms".
What military owned books could they have had? We know that some of the guys surrendered was Thomas' Legion and Gen. Frazier complained that they were ill trained and he believed they had never seen a military manual.


The quote leads me to believe these were the actions of the rank and file, not those in charge. I agree with you. I was jumping to conclusions thinking that someone maybe nudged them to do this.

I agree that they probably broke the muskets to avoid having them used against fellow countrymen. However, they burned their flags to avoid surrendering them. These were of no use to the Federals except as prizes of war.
Burning clothing and books may have just been the result of agitation and some "mob mentality" once the fires were going.
I imagine those boys were wishing they had not burned their own stuff when they were sitting in prison.

This is a VERY interesting point...I hadn't thought about it as a riot-like response.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Luke,

The military books in question would include company returns, rosters, battalion and brigade level record keeping books. We aren't talking about novels. Order books would provide information about strength, disposition, movements and perceived weaknesses. Quartermaster returns will tell them how well government supply is going and ordnance returns will tell give a clue about the ability to supply ammunition in a timely fashion. Do we even need to discuss captured maps? Books aren't just for reading.

Clothing vs. uniform: Think about it, these were citizen soldiers and the word clothing is all encompassing to include non-uniform items, such as drawers, shirts, socks and hats. Just a guess on my part, but I try not to get too narrow a view when reading something. We have to remember that we are reading their words by our modern context, so there is almost some interpretation required. You read "clothing" as "non-military" and I read it as "anything that will cover a part of the body". How did they mean it when they wrote it? We may never know.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

In addition to my earlier cites of Federal soldiers appropriating civilian or Confederate clothing in the Carolinas, here's Cyrus Roberts again:

Feb' 3' Rain all day. Move at 7 1/2 A.M. After moving 2 or 3 miles - saw a plantation off to the right - and started out - riding up on a gallop. discovered three women burying some clothing & other goods in a corn filed close to the house. they were much alarmed swung out a white flag and asked for protection. I informed them we would not injure their persons nor burn their property, but would take their horses, cattle, hogs, bacon and whatever is needed for the use of the army. their best articles were buried in boxes and in the ground covered over with a little earth and old corn stalks piled on top. in these boxes were found some rebel uniforms also some Federal uniform drawers, socks & c. & c. that which belonged to the woman I did not allow touched, tho' the men's apparel, ammunition & c., found were appropriated.

Also, this from John Henry Otto's Memoirs of a Dutch Mudsill, for March 24, 1865:

No Officer or man wore a decent suit of clothing. For 10. weeks we had roughed it in the wood and swamps, and everything was tattered and torn, and worst of all the shoes. Good many wore, what they pompously called: "parlor moccasins", corsely drawn together of rawhide. Some wore a semblance of a hat... Others again wore the garb of the native, butternut colored, homespun, and were honeured with the title; "galvanized Johnnies"; others again had utilized their dogtent canvas for a new suit....

[PogueMahone]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Schnappsy,

Again, I think the word "appropriated" only relays the capture of contraband goods to deny the enemy of resources. Any civilian garment could be dubbed "rebel uniform" for the purposes of confiscation.

I would be interested in seeing a canvas coat, though.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Yes, "appropriated" is ambiguous, but in my earlier post we have Alonzo Miller specifically saying that some of his comrades wore "rebel uniforms" and Roberts describing a patrol that looked enough like Confederates to capture and despoil soldiers from their own side, twice. Plus, somewhere I know have a journal entry by a fellow who specifically mentions wearing Confederate pants.

So in that context, I think it likely they did use them. And that's not simple speculation, but a conclusion based on several independent sources. And it makes sense: I mean, even jean cloth has got to beat shelter half tailoring for winter wear.

Not saying this was common, but with several references from foragers in the Carolinas, it seems that it did happen. More commonly, on the same campaign, both officers (you can see this in the AARs in the ORs) and men (letters and journals) complain about the general deterioration of clothing and the lack of any replacements from either side.

So in substance, you're generally right as far as the war on the whole, but it's also another of those cases where you can never say never.

[PogueMahone]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Mike,

What is the documentation that you refer to?

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Federal Gear In the Confederate Ranks

Mike,

What is the documentation that you refer to?

For wearing civilian or Confederate clothing, I refer to the links I posted in message #33 and the Otto memoir. Page 922 of the October, 1887 issue of The Century provides another reference, with an illustration of bummers wearing pre-war militia outfits they dug up on their travels.

For references to supply problems in the march through the Carolinas, you'd look at War of the Rebellion (the Official Records), Series I, Volume 47, as well as Series III, Volume 5. As the troops got further into the Carolinas, the pickings got slimmer and the wear and tear on clothing worse, particularly for those units not re-equipped in Sannah.