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***Pvt_Sullivan*** · 04-20-2009, 09:10 AM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Scottie,

Watch out, you might be accused of destroying the hobby or called out for being a newbie who doesn't know anything.

Brian McGarrahan and I will be coming to Resaca with the SCAR Company... come mess with us and we'll get our FIRPER on.

**btfire** · 04-20-2009, 09:44 AM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Based on past experiences, I realize that the quest for first person interaction will result in disappointment more times than naught. However, there was some, not a lot, but some first person interaction. I had many going for awhile on my whore mother, my youth in an orphanage, my time in the Chicago Fire Department, my move to Detroit with a partner who swindled me and many others in a "land" scheme (leaving me with no money and no friends in a strange town) and my resulting enlistment in the service. It was fun, but did not last. I held few expectations for first person interaction in this event, which made my enjoyment of the event much better I believe. I, like you, seek a higher level. Friday at Olustee was one of the better first person days for me. Pete is right, mess with us at Resaca and we will keep you going. Send me a PM and between Pete, Scott, John, and I we can get some things rolling preevent to make our event first person even better...

**Hank Trent** · 04-20-2009, 10:52 AM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Originally posted by NewHopeChurch View Post

No, I'm not saying I'd like to spend 36 hours talking about nothing but 1860s Michigan...

I didn't stay in period all weekend - I had many a modern talk around the evening campfire, I added a story or two to the highly enjoyable "stupid things people say to you at reenactments" conversation, I quietly asked my pards where they were from in the real world - but these actions are (I like to think) a sign of moderation, rather than of outright disregard for the standards we hold for these kinds of events....

So I have to ask publicly...why do we bother applying restrictions regarding modern discussion and first person personnas, if we're just going to flaunt our disregard for those rules after a scant few moments of observing them?

Disclaimer: I didn't attend this event, so I'm commenting generically here on reenactor behavior in general, and not at all about this event in particular. I've read similar comments after many events, and it's a failed expectation which definitely affects my enjoyment of the hobby, so I'm curious about the same thing.

As near as I can tell, what I've quoted above is your answer. Everyone else is just doing what you're doing, except they're doing it when and how you don't want them to.

I'd love to hear this complaint from someone who refused to break character, and instead complained about having to spend the weekend mostly silently listening, unable to find anyone to talk with or to get away from modern talk.

Out of curiosity, I searched the event folder quickly and didn't see any rules against modern talk at this event, so I wonder if this wasn't even supposed to be that kind of event, and the problem in this case is more about having too high expectations.

I was recently asked to attend an event as military, and I inquired of the organizer: "I'll be quite honest, at every single campaign event where I've portrayed a soldier, from Pickett's Mill '01 to Payne's Farm, military campfire and break-time talk has been frustratingly, consistently, loudly modern, even when the rules specifically stated otherwise. What can I do here if I get stuck in that situation?"

He gave an answer that made me willing to give it a try. It may be confidential, so I won't share it here. But I'll just say the only solution I've found otherwise is to avoid being stuck as a private with a random company. Pick a role where you can get up and go elsewhere in the event site at any time, which generally means a civilian role, and be prepared to do so. And--obviously--don't be part of the problem. I would have had to get up and walk away from your campfire as well.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@voyager.net

**NewHopeChurch** · 04-20-2009, 11:13 AM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Hank, once it became obvious that there was to be little regard for firpir (I judged this after about 4 hours of daylight/after we made it to our second encampment), I made the call to either sit in frustrated silence or try and make the best of it. I figured, if nothing else, men in camp would sit and bullshit about their lives outside the army, perhaps the general attitude was period-correct, if not the discussion. To me, silently brooding and focussing on the distraction makes the intrussion worse than it would be were it accepted.

Oh, I brooded. I brooded at the cameras (I neglected to mention the occasional flashes of light coming from the fort that briefly illuminated the field during the night firefight), I brooded at the obvious lack of concern during a firefight, I brooded at those who disregarded a CS company attack on the camp at night so that they may continue to cook their rations (my rice was nearly spoiled, but I still responded to the emergency). And this brooding served as a conscious recognition to the facade of the scenario - it made it worse.

Of course, I much rather would have not had to make the choice between brooding and occasionally indulging (also, for the record, I leapt at the opportunity to leave camp on scouting patrols/skirmish duty whenever the chance arose, so your solution to the problem is valid). I would rather everyone simply stuck to the rules. And though I haven't read the event folder post for post, orders were passed down on no less than 3 occassions that there were to be "no modern conversations or intrustions starting at X time." With that, I'd consider my expectations valid.

Again, I don't expect there to be naught but period-proper discussion all weekend long (though that would be great). However, the degree of digression from that standard is what has me confuddled.

**PogueMahone** · 04-20-2009, 12:51 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Scottie,

You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig. Likewise, you can put kewl clothes from the very best vendors on a mainstreamer, but he is still a mainstreamer.

I helped put on a event once and we did everything we could to avoid such situations. We required copies of ID to enforce the age and gender rules. We held knapsack and haversack inspections to reduce modern items. Still, one woman smuggled in a cell phone inside her corset because she just had to talk to her boyfriend that weekend. She was seen using the phone, despite our best efforts.

There just aren't many that can maintain first person consistently for an extended period of time. And, while the event standards may "require" first person, they really have no way of enforcing it. They can't be everywhere policing every conversation. And once the class clown starts cracking redneck jokes, the barrier is broken and there is no going back.

I struggle with first person at every event. I can usually keep my modern thoughts to myself until others around me break that barrier and then I fail. As with everyone else, because of the structure of the military organization, it is hard to get away from those that don't care to attempt first person and ruin other's efforts in their carelessness.

Hank is about the best at maintaining a character as anyone you'll find. I find myself making a greater effort when I am around him out of respect for his "work ethic". Maybe that is what this hobby needs - more "Hanks".

**Kiev Thomason** · 04-20-2009, 12:58 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Scotty,
I know that you are very new to this SIDE of our hobby. So that being said ...we all have felt the way you do at one time or another. However I think that Mr. Trent is very correct in his thoughts on his above post and what you said about wishing that guys would sit in camp and BS about their life before or after the war or how bad army life was or is is your best chance. I found that over the years that every event that makes a rule about FP is broken at some point in time at the event. It may be at a late point in the event but is will happen. There was many of us that went to the W64 event in New York...it was great! We stayed in FP for most all of the event but there were a few times that this was broken. We had a watch phrase to let someone know that we would like to break the rule for a short time. They inturn would say yes or no and then we would stay the course or walk off and one on one talk about what ever it was. Thats the ONLY time in 12 years that I have seen an event go almost to the end without the breakdown as you are talking about. I think you make the event your own and have to not get so worked up over it. I do understand and I know that some of us on the CS side made the effort and three or so hours in it was busted by a few folks who just don't get it. I am not gonna name anyone ,but there are a few folks in the hobby that I know who will just not get into FP no matter what. There is nothing you can do about it and getting mad does not help. You will forever be angry. You can only do what I did with my company and ask them to try and stay FP and if the can't then just tell them to walk out of camp and talk...even then some will not. It isa hobby and you can't force anyone to do it. Hell having lice and sh%tting your self because of bad diet and lack of water is PC too, but are you willing to do that? I doubt it. Just enjoy the small things sometimes and think about it. I know that this was only your second time out to a event like this and PW was your first so you may want to take some time and talk to others who have been around before you get angry and burn out and fade away.

Thats just my thoughts on it for what they are worth.
However at Bummers gents be ready it's FurPer time!

**NewHopeChurch** · 04-20-2009, 01:23 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Thanks for the responses, all. One brief thing to clarify - I'm most definately not angry, burning out, fading away, or even worked up (though I admit my over-wordy nature can sometimes be confused for the latter). I was, however, confused regarding the enforcement of these rules. You've clarified some things for me. And, if any of you thought I was legitimately "mad" about this, I hope this clarifies that for you as well.

**Mgreer** · 04-20-2009, 01:42 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Kiev,

allow me to break FurPer for a moment..."Its great to have you hear, you have a great impression, we need more colord boys like you in theis hobby, I can be an in-toe-lectual too"

**DougCooper** · 04-20-2009, 01:52 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Joe and Hank are exactly right. This is burr #1 under my saddle, but I recognize that it is tough for many folks to convert 21st century subjects to their 19th century equivalents. Short of only attending events put on by the ONV or Ground Hornets, patience and work is required. It takes serious leadership, before and during an event and serious peer pressure during an event to keep first person. But for those of us who have a knack and enjoy it, we need to lead the peer pressure part and have the guts to say "knock it off" from time to time...in a period manner of course. :D

That and one must ensure you pick the right company before the event.

Personally, for me the 19th century is a refuge from the 21st. The last thing I want is for the 21st to chase me down after I have spend hundreds of $ to fly to an event billed as immersion or semi-immersion (whatever that means). It leads to great frustration and long hours on guard and picket, which tends to be where we escape when the campfire talk begins to delve into "who makes the best widget" and "Florida vs Oklahoma."

So put me in the ranks of the "Hanks." :)

**PogueMahone** · 04-20-2009, 02:04 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

I'm not sure I want a definition of "Fur Per"!!!!

What you boys do in the privacy of your own shelter half is YOUR business!!

;)

**FloridaConscript** · 04-20-2009, 02:11 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

Originally posted by DougCooper View Post

Joe and Hank are exactly right. This is burr #1 under my saddle, but I recognize that it is tough for many folks to convert 21st century subjects to their 19th century equivalents. Short of only attending events put on by the ONV or Ground Hornets, patience and work is required. It takes serious leadership, before and during an event and serious peer pressure during an event to keep first person. But for those of us who have a knack and enjoy it, we need to lead the peer pressure part and have the guts to say "knock it off" from time to time...in a period manner of course. :D

That and one must ensure you pick the right company before the event.

Personally, for me the 19th century is a refuge from the 21st. The last thing I want is for the 21st to chase me down after I have spend hundreds of $ to fly to an event billed as immersion or semi-immersion (whatever that means). It leads to great frustration and long hours on guard and picket, which tends to be where we escape when the campfire talk begins to delve into "who makes the best widget" and "Florida vs Oklahoma."

So put me in the ranks of the "Hanks." :)

I think 1st per. is the hardest part of our end of the hobby to do well. In a way your are almost speaking in another language. When I took foreighn language in school, all of my instructors said you had to "think" in spanish or french to ever get thew hang of it, not translate in your head and then speak. Learning to think in 19th C. is a decidedly tough task as well.

It can be intimidating as well, and I have found it is easier for me to do 1st pers. with a fellow I have never met before, as opposed to the guy that I email on a regular basis, or just spent 8 hours in a car tother driving to the event.

**kaelin** · 04-20-2009, 02:46 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

I have to say I had several first person conversations, moments, etc. this past weekend with several different individuals. I also was surrounded by modern conversations at times where I either walked away, ignored, or asked if they could take there conversation else where.
Truth be told by Sat. night our company was pretty tired and wore out and the first person was really out the window...but I chose to be silent or take my conversations to private.
I believe the work you do prior to an event and the stories and knowledge you have will flow into your conversations and it will become easy.
I also believe you can control what you are around, you can choose to get up and leave a conversation, you can ask someone nicely to take their conversation elsewhere.
This is a 2 way street here, its not just on the people who dont know how to do first person.
I hope this doesnt reflect badly on this event, as it was WELL done and scripted. But I do hope that this same ole conversation about first person will improve and get better.

respectfully

**BrianHicks** · 04-20-2009, 03:46 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

I wasn't aware that this event was advertised as a 'First Person' heavy event. On the Confederate side, I didn't hear any modern conversations that were loud enough, or prolonged enough to be distracting or intrusive. On the other side of the coin, I didn't encounter very many period discussions either though. We made a very conscious effort not to engage in adolescent cat calling across the lines. With one exception (and it was nipped very quickly), we were successful in that effort.

The camera flashes off the works of the Fort on Saturday night is a another story. They were intrusive, and distracting!

**Mtn.Guerilla** · 04-20-2009, 04:15 PM

Re: First Person restrictions - why bother?

I have to agree with the other fella's who were on the CS side, that I know many of made a concious effort to "try" and stay in first person. Both Mr. Hicks and Thomason I thought, made it very clear to people of what was expected of them, in our company. Although when you hear a modern conversation, it seems it almost becomes contagious. I by no means stayed in FP 100%, but did try to be cordial to those around me, when I was catching up or something like that, with old friends. I also realize that we are, above all friends, who love the hobby, and that it can be tough to not fall into a "hanging out" mode, when you haven't seen some of your best friends in months. I believe the only 100% FP moment I've ever had was my day long interaction with Marvin Greer when I was catured at DRL. Even at that I had to "close myself off" from some of the conversation between some of the fellas that catured me. As was stated before this was not an imerssive event, altough with the beauty of the terrain, great impressions, and the fine soldiers I served with, it was not hard to become imerssed, when I needed it! My 2 cents.

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First Person Restrictions - Why Bother?

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