Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

[RJSamp]

the 1861 Regs call for the Field Grade Officers to wear a silk crimson sash. I've been attached to many command staffs over 11 years of reenacting....the field grade officer's wear dark red sashes.....not crimson. Have to fess up that Green looks red to me, and vice versa....so pardon my personal color filters....

of course, maybe the regs called for one thing and the extent survivors have aged a different shade.....or were contract 'dyed' to a different shade....

Cardinal, crimson, scarlet, maroon, hunter, arterial bleeding vs vein bleeding (blood red)....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarlet_(color) has a nice list of red hues by name and their correspondent hue.....

BURGUNDY or Carmine would appear to be the 2009 Officer's Sash color of choice in reenacting today. Not Crimson.

Thanks!

[rebjeb04]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Hello Sir,
Maybe the different shades of red came from the different dyes used by various contractors that sold these. I've always considered the bright red as a wool NCO pattern, and the darker hues ie. crimson, dark red, blood red, scarlett, etc. You can often tell they have different types of tassels as well.
Hope this helps a little.

[RJSamp]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Well I don't have trouble telling the difference between a dark red vs a light red....or a Major from a Sergeant when they are both wearing sashes. As a Musician am well aware that A=440 was not the standard in 1862.....am wondering aloud here what hue was crimson in 1861-1865.

This definitely could be a dye/aging thing....

Am aware of 3 hues for blood for examples (arterial is bright red, veins purplish, and old dried blook is even darker) so 'blood red' isn't quite the standard I was looking for. And today's Crimson is less purple/blue/dark than the sashes I see in the field (not that they aren't crimson, but that's how they look to me).

So the question is.....is the Crimson in today's reenacting for a field grade officer's sash the same hue as 1861-1865....let's assume being worn within 1 year of being dyed and moderate field wear/chaffing from the belt/exposure to sun,rain, and human hands.....

too me, crimson is a lighter shade than what I'm seeing....but again, I'm color anomolous....

Thanks!!!

[10TnVI]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Flip to the civy board and ask Mrs. Lawson-our dyeing expert-
here's the wiki entry

Crimson is a strong, bright, deep red color combined with some blue, resulting in a tiny degree of purple. It is originally the color of the dye produced from a scale insect, Kermes vermilio, but the name is now also used for slightly bluish-red colors in general that are between red and rose.

kermes is an insect dye made from a bug indigenous to the far east, now mostly out of production and replaced in most cases by cochineal-a very similiar insect dye made from a related species native to Mexico. It was more abundant and cheaper than kermes and all but replaced it in the modern era, before analine dyes came along. Still used in foodstuffs as a coloring. The modern name for the cochineal color is carmine

[Spinster]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Mr. Hares,

I've been trying to figure out how to speak to this question for a couple of days now, and can't quite get a good purchase on it, as I'm not familiar with the contract requirements from these items.

So, I'll attempt to talk in general terms. First, for my reds, I work primarily in cochineal and madder --I've used kermes, but not enough to 'know' what its going to do. So, I'm going to speak to the properties of cochineal only.

Cochineal can range from a 'baby pink' to a 'screaming hot pink' with one mordant (metal salts that fix dye--alum, stannous chloride, copper sulfate, iron) while producing a deep maroon with another, out of the same lot of bugs with the same strength of dye. Use of creme of tartar to remove the purple tint from this dye is also a variable.

I pre-mordant yarns beforehand--separate from the dyepot. So that when its time to set up a big cochineal dyepot, I can put in skeins of yarn premodanted with alum, tin, and copper, and get graduated colors in a complementary range, as shown below (in this case, a kit for a documented scarf, produced and sold by Robin Stokes).

Further, I could take the same dyepot, and put silk yarns in at the same time, and get different shades with the same mordant, simply because silk takes dye differently than wool.

And, if I started again tomorrow with a sack of cochineal bugs from a different source, even if I measured everything precisely and held the dye temperature just so, I'm going to get a variation in color. Oh, and water content matter too--and for true true reds from cochineal, I've got to have distilled water----in my mordant pots, in my dyepots, and in my rinse water.

So, I can't really answer RJ's question.

I do know that I have examined an original sash (I have no idea what rank it was for) made of silk with a wool tassel. While its likely that they matched closely at the time of manufacture, the oxidation process had happened differently for the two fibers. What was horrifying at the time was that the collector had brought that original to me in hopes of having it redyed in a period dye, to freshen the color. I wasn't ever really sure we had him talked out of such an effort.

[benjclark]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

We have an orig. in collections at the Oklahoma History Center. I'm working on photos. Our best efforts to describe the color is wine. It's an 1863 documented sash. Photos forthcoming.

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Well I don't have trouble telling the difference between a dark red vs a light red....or a Major from a Sergeant when they are both wearing sashes. As a Musician am well aware that A=440 was not the standard in 1862.....am wondering aloud here what hue was crimson in 1861-1865.

This definitely could be a dye/aging thing....

Am aware of 3 hues for blood for examples (arterial is bright red, veins purplish, and old dried blook is even darker) so 'blood red' isn't quite the standard I was looking for. And today's Crimson is less purple/blue/dark than the sashes I see in the field (not that they aren't crimson, but that's how they look to me).

So the question is.....is the Crimson in today's reenacting for a field grade officer's sash the same hue as 1861-1865....let's assume being worn within 1 year of being dyed and moderate field wear/chaffing from the belt/exposure to sun,rain, and human hands.....

too me, crimson is a lighter shade than what I'm seeing....but again, I'm color anomolous....

Thanks!!!

I'm not in a position to look at officer's sashes so I don't know what colors they are using but I can tell you what color "crimson" was in 1862. I have started researching names of colors and what actual colors looked like, not just what we think they looked like.

"Crimson color. - This is a red color with a tendency towards purple or blue, just as scarlet has the contrary tendency toward orange or yellow. The chief and most valuable crimson colors are obtained from cochineal, and have been treated under that head; it only remains here to add some of the crimson shades obtained from woods." Dictionary of Dying and Calico Printing by Charles O'Neill (1862 and 1867)

The section on crimson goes on to say that sumac was used to dye cotton crimson. In the cochineal section there were a number of recipes for dying wools and silks, what mordants to use, and the chemicals and temperatures used with the dye.

Robert Ridgway's book, Nomenclature of Colors (1886), was the first color book to use color examples of each color. He used actual painted swatches for each color sample with the corresponding name and the formula to obtain the color. The color crimson in his book is a bit darker than the crimson in the color samples in the link you provided in your first post but not nearly as dark as the burgundy or maroon. The scarlet in Ridgway's book is a lighter tone than the scarlet in the link but it is still an orange-red.Vermillion was a darker color of orange-red than scarlet.

There is a great book titled A Perfect Red by Amy Butler Greenfield that tells the story of the quest for the red dyes. It will tell you all about red dyes and how they were made and the colors obtained from each.

[rogue]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

I almost hesitate on this posting as it envolves a dubious source, ebay, but...on ebay there is an original officer sash in its original box that can be seen, and it is crimson.
Now I do not have the computer expertise to have the item appear here, but it is in the original Civil War area under uniforms. It is also for sale by Walter Budd, a respected dealer in post-Civil War artifacts who also knows Civil War and has been dealing in high end items for decades.
To chime into this thread it is well worth a look, and perhaps a computer saavy individual can post the photos here.
I am not connected with Walter Budd in any way.
S.Sullivan

[the other nathan]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!



This is the afore mentioned image.
Here is a link to the auction page.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mint-U-S-Officer...3286.m20.l1116

[CompanyWag]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Interesting example in that it has the "net" above the tassle rather than the more commonly encountered (in my experience) "turks head" knot which resembles a basket weave. I'm not sure of the correct terms here. Some 15 or more years ago, the common repros had netting knots like this...but also had rather large wooden plugs that made the tassles hang much fatter than on original sashes. Not sure what the current state-of-the-art repro sash is configured like nowadays, but I would tread with caution.

Sorry this doesn't have anything to add to the crimson discussion, but I can post a closeup photo of one of my originals this weekend if that would be of any small help.

Paul McKee

[rogue]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Nathan, thank you and say hello to SEO.
Paul, hello as well, and I am trying to post a photo of two originals I own, but it is late at night and flash is not doing a good job. I will post a photo none the less, and try tomorrow in day light.
Both of these are faded something fierce, but evidence two different types of knot.
S.Sullivan

[CompanyWag]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Greetings Steve,

The first one you show is what I think of as the most common with the turk's head knot (just my opinion)...I agree that variation is encountered in anything from ossifer-land as all of this is privately purchased and not government produced. Much like variation in officer hat cords and bullion embroidery.

In Budd's example, I'd want to see more of it in hand. The pasteboard box certainly looks period, but I wonder if this was the way it was originally packaged or perhaps the way it was stored after the war. Seems rather low-end packaging to me. Who knows.

BTW, outdoor light in the shade is every bit as good as studio lighting and miles ahead of on-camera flash!

Paul McKee

[rogue]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Hello back Paul late of the Mudsills,
Well company coming over, and no wag, but I did get two quick shots sans flash. It seems we have hijacked a color thread and gone knotty. Mayhaps we could get Wede to buy the one from Walter Budd and report on it?
In any event, the larger of the two came from a defunct Illinois GAR hall, and is unattributed. It looks as it should, as you indicated.
The smaller of the two came with an officer's frock I obtained in California that was worn by an officer in the 2nd Wisconsin Cavalry with the wonderful name of Captain Thomas Jefferson LaFlesh. The antique dealer included his "scarf" with the coat, which is a very short sash, able to go around the coat but once, not regulation length, and with smaller tassle.
On both the colors appear very faded.
S.Sullivan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

Hallo!

"Vegetable" dyes and dyestuffs are a complicated subject in their own right.

Such factors as the purity of the dyestuff, the purity of the mordant(s), the concentration of dye in the dyebath, the temperature of the dye bath, the metal of the dye "pot," whether the fabric was premordanted or mordanted in the dyebath, the fabric itself, the "nature" of the fabric being dyed, the time in the bath, the skill and knowlede of the dyer in mixing the dyebath and the mordants to get a particular shade and intensity of a given color.

IMHO, a classic is indigo dyed blue as found in federal blouses, coats, and trosuers.

Plus, at the end of the day, while they did have early "color wheels" they did not have "color chips" as a uniformed "standard."

And last but not least, even with digital cameras- the "true color" of what the object is (under different light sources) is not always the same when shared on different coputer monitor screens.
Just as color lithography can cause the same artists' painting to have differing color shades and intensities when printed in different books or republishing of the same book's color plates (some I have seen with "Echoes of Glory" for example.)

While we Moderns often want to lump "red" as being madder, brick, scarlet, crimson, port, claret, blood, ox blood, etc., often "in the Past" they referred to classes of reds requiring more expensive dyestuffs and more involved dyeing skills and techniques. (For example, the 18th century British Army "red coat" that ultimate was a progression of "brick" red for enlistedmen,
"crimson" for sergeants, and "scarlet" for officers.

And the use of words can drive us crazy- such as all of the terms used for
the "Red Baron's" airplanes.

Curt

[Chip]

Re: Help for the color blind/anomalous: Crimson Sash!

The dyes and dye receipts used in the 1860s to obtain, "Common Crimson," varied according to the type of FABRIC being dyed.

Comparing the existing color of a silk sash to that of a wool and/or cotton sash at this juncture is very subjective because the original dyes and receipts were different in the first place and have additionally been subject to 140+ years of different chemical change patterns/variables.

This is an example of one, "Common Crimson," receipt for silk:

"Into a copper or stoneware vessel put some of the peachwood plumb, No. 37; work the goods in it for half an hour; then wash out in cold water until no taste of plumb is perceptible in the cloth; wring and dry."

"A Manual of Dyeing Receipts - For General Use"
by James Napier
Published by Richard Griffin & Company, London 1858

One of the other factors involved with an officer's sash is the fact that many officers typically purchased this item with their own pay, along with other similar items, typically from private businesses that specialized in military goods.