undershirts

[GreencoatCross]

Re: undershirts

Those two photos of the knit shirt are really amazing. I've been getting into the undershirt thing lately and I'm looking forward to seeing more information about what I think is an oft overlooked item.

Pat, the placket looks false, the collar looks like part of the body, and the buttons look decorative and not functional. Am I correct? Do you have any photos of the interior seams, or the sleeves and cuffs?

Brian White

[Enfilade]

Re: undershirts

Talking about the "modesty issue", there are several period images of men in shirt sleeves working, digging, burying the dead. Many slave images as well without a coat on. What about the slave next to the wheel barrow of bones has on just an undershirt doesn't he? The reason so many times you've heard "don't go around with your shirt off, it's not authentic", is because there are so many women in camp. How authentic is that?

Mark Berrier

[Chuck Winchester]

Re: undershirts

In the photo the placket looks off center. There is a patent drawing from the book "Victorians Unbuttoned" that show a knit undershirt; the placket is off center in that one. Does anyone know if this was common?
Mr. Brown, will your shirts be knit in wool or cotton?
Chuck Winchester

[Company Tailor]

Re: undershirts

I'm working up the run now, sourcing the goods. To briefly answer the questions on the Arabia shirt:

The front opening is in fact off center. Shirts like this often had no placket at all. Just an opening with an interior extension.

The neck opening is collarless.

The Arabia shirt wasn't available to me to examine closely so I can't speak for the cut details of that shirt specifically. One of the apprentice curators there who had laid the shirt out at one point shared some details with me though that I will incorporate in the repros. In addition, I have had close access to three other extant originals that I'll be using to copy for the run. They were very similar to the Arabia shirt and one even predated it. More details to come.

On the modesty issue... I think the photograph referred to above is one dating from the Indian War period where some troopers are frolicking in a Montana river or something (might be a different one, but there are similar phots). But anyway, you make my point for me Mike. They are bathing, not parading around the company streets. I'll need to dig the photo up but if I'm not mistaken there are even some lads on the bank wading into the creek wearing their drawers. I'm not saying soldiers never changed their clothing in the field. Far from it. Only that Hollywood (and some mainstreamers) carry this bare skin and underdrawers thing too far.

Cheers!

[Mutt]

Great photo

Howdy,

Here's a photo in a collection of a friend on mines:

Possible Undershirt - Paul Johnson collection - PIP

I spent sometime looking over the actual image at one point and the image as it is on our website. It surely looks like the illusive undershirt of the period. Quite different from the typical image indeed. Not modest atall. I'm sure his wife or love back home would have his head, or like it? hahaha. Great stuff. Enjoy.

If ya wanna see more great original images click on the link to The Phoenix Iron Pards site in my signature at the bottom and then click on "Original Images". Most of Paul's Collection is up there. I'm still working on that part of the site as Homestead hasn't been agreeable lately :-\

Regards,

[SparksBird]

Re: undershirts

Great pictures Pat. I would love to see more civilian undershirts being produced. I think it is a clothing item that is definitely under-represented in both living history and reenacting. One of my favorite prints is the Currier & Ives print "Going to Market". If you take a look at it, you will notice that the farmer who is loading the wagon is wearing a red undershirt underneath his white shirt. He has his sleeves rolled up and it is quite prominent. At the Union County Historical Society here in Ohio, we have in our collections two period boys undershirts. They are both red knit shirts with a collar and cuff attached. Neither one of them have a placket and basically have a V shaped opening at the collar with a single mother of pearl button. They are very similar to most of the adult ones that I have seen. I did find in our collections a period knitting machine as well, complete with instructions. As soon as I can figure it out, I would like to follow their instructions for making a knit shirt.
Pat, will your shirt be sold through Skillet Licker?

Rick Musselman
Buckeye Mess
GHTI

[courier]

Re: undershirts

Pards,
How should a period undershirt fit? By this I mean,are the sleeves supposed to be shorter than the shirt,the neck opening wider? I understand that the neck openings are sometimes "boatnecked".Does anyone have a feel for the type sold by S and S.is this a commom pattern?
Regards,Rick Harris

[Amtmann]

Re: undershirts

Delete this post. I was going to post a pic of an Indian taken during the Gold Rush that was wearing what looks like an undershirt with WAY off center placket. I remembered the warning of posting scanned pics.

[Canton Zouave]

Re: undershirts

The shirt offered by S&S is a sample similar to the one on display at the Visitor Center in Gettysburg.

However, that last time I was there, I didnt get a chance to take a close look at their rendition of the shirt.

[Guardsman]

Re: undershirts

This is a tangential issue from the initial post, but one must remember there is a difference between what you have on when changing/bathing and washing clothes and what one wears when carousing around camp.

On campaign you have no camp to carouse around in, so why would you be in anything less than full uniform. At stationary camps you might have time to wander around in your undergarments but there is also a higher likelihood of women being around; officers families, aid workers, civilian population (most camps are near a town of some sort), etc..

At some times the modesty issue might be taken too far, like when digging ditches or other fatigue duties, but when smoking a pipe, eating a meal, writing a letter I don’t think
it is unreasonable to be dressed.

[Clark Badgett]

Re: undershirts

Are we all talking about the same soldiers that were modest enough to have themselves photographed in their undergarments? Even studio portraits? And even posed with their coats wide open and their harry chests exposed? Yes, I think we take it a bit far at times. Etiquette rules, like most other rules are/were broken and often.

[ThehosGendar]

Re: undershirts

The shirtsleeve issue is something where, one would think, common sense would prevail, and for me classifies as a firmly entrenched reenactor myth. On a sunny day in a nearly treeless position in Virginia, would you expect to see soldiers clothed in their fatigue blouses, buttoned, and sleeves down? Let the images speak for themselves:

(Position of the mortar "Dictator," October 1864):



Around civilians:
(Sanitary Commission at Belle Plain Landing, Va., May 1864):


(White House Landing, Va. Headquarters of the U.S. Christian Commission, May-August 1862):


If undershirt is mean by the Arabia garment or the Hanes thermal underwear thing that Jude Law was sporting in Cold Mountain, then I agree, however, only when a sleeve isn't rolled up, or the soldier is in a position where the less clothing worn facilitates proper care of a wound:

[Bill]

Re: undershirts

Jason,

In the "Dictator" picture. It looked to me like the first and third soldiers from the right had scarfs around their necks, and that the first solder is using a belt to hold up his trousers.

Can you tell from the original picture if this correct, or if I am seeing things?

[Peachfuz]

Re: undershirts

From the records at the National Archives, microfilm #324:
Requisiton report for Co. C, 33rd VA 1/31/64 by Capt. Samual Bowman
1-Overcoat
1-Jacket
6-Pants
2-Overshirts
2-Bottomshirts
2-Enlish blankets
3-par shoes
7-Drawers

Rich Taddeo

[ThehosGendar]

Re: undershirts

Jason,

In the "Dictator" picture. It looked to me like the first and third soldiers from the right had scarfs around their necks, and that the first solder is using a belt to hold up his trousers.

Can you tell from the original picture if this correct, or if I am seeing things?

Bill,

You're right about the first soldier - he's wearing a neckerchief and a belt, which looks to have a tongue and wreath buckle!


I found him in another view of the Dictator, but he's behind someone, though just enough of his neck and shoulder is in view to see the handkerchief.


The other soldier just has his collar opened- here he is in the other view:


Look at the stripes on this guy's shirt!