Soap on campaign

[lojafan]

I've never really heard anything before about bars of soap on campaign, and I'm rather curious (as I'm trying to gather smaller, seemingly unimportant items to improve my overall impression.) I'm sure they had soap, but what kind? Just lye soap? Any specific manufacturers? Private purchase or a requsitionable item?

Any information will be much appreciated!!

Thanks!

[rebelfirefighter07]

Re: Soap on campaign

There are several civillians on here that make quality homemade Lye soap. It should be what you are lookin for.

http://authentic-campaigner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21651&highlight=lye+soap

[Hank Trent]

Re: Soap on campaign

There are several civillians on here that make quality homemade Lye soap. It should be what you are lookin for.

http://authentic-campaigner.com/foru...light=lye+soap

Actually, I think the question is interesting, and goes deeper than that. How and where did the army purchase its soap? Was it issued in molded bars or in cut blocks and at what point in the issuing process were the blocks cut to individual size? Was it always the same, or were castille, soft soap or any common civilian variations ever issued (as opposed to being available for sale)?

The rations called for 4 pounds of soap per 100 rations, which would mean that each man was getting less than an ounce of soap with each ration issue, but I doubt that that was how it was issued. So... how often was it issued, and in what quantities? A certain weight per man once a month, a certain weight per company per day, etc.?

Needless to say, it surely varied greatly, but I don't even know what was typical.

Even though the end result might be a well-worn sliver of soap in the possession of an individual soldier, each soldier would certainly know what it looked like when he got it new and how often he received it.

Don't believe I've ever seen those details discussed, and I have no idea myself.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[RJSamp]

Re: Soap on campaign

I've never really heard anything before about bars of soap on campaign, and I'm rather curious (as I'm trying to gather smaller, seemingly unimportant items to improve my overall impression.) I'm sure they had soap, but what kind? Just lye soap? Any specific manufacturers? Private purchase or a requsitionable item?

Any information will be much appreciated!!

Thanks!

LYE SOAP, a simple square of it is fine. Put it in a small cotton pouch. Shave off a little into a cup or pot of boiling water, great for dishwashing.

US Soap manufacturers didn't start marketing the everyday stuff until after the American Civil War (or at least successfully in the 'brand' name concept we think of). French milled soap wouldn't make it to the front lines that often, other than liberally foraging it from a civilian home or shop...or visiting a fine house in say, Jackson Square Nawlins, with some 'hot' women (the Octaroons always fetched a pretty penny).

Think Zanesville Ohio : John Doster Hoge and Robert Schultz. John Hoge (see Hoge Building downtown Seattle) is a distant GG uncle on my mother's side (namesake Hoge Sullivan was at my wedding). Anyway, Hoge was the marketing genius behind GOLD and STARS soap....1866. Gold soap had 1 gold coin per case in the wrapped bar of pig fat soap.....kind of like cracker jacks but there wasn't a surprise in Every box/bar. Stars soap had gold stars on the wrapper, and they used to haul a big white 'circus wagon' with giant gold stars on it down the main thoroughfare of a City (like New York) pulled by an 8 up hitch of white horses (think Budweiser Clydesdales pulling a large wagon). So there's your 'manufacturer's' of Soap.

Hoge / Schultz later sold to an upstart firm out of Cincinnatti....oh, the devil worshippers company Procter & Gamble for a pretty penny. They also tried/failed to promote land sales/a tract housing nirvanna/mecca in Odessa TX. Both very wealthy, and the Schultz house can be toured to this day.....

[Virginia Mescher]

Re: Soap on campaign

This is Virginia's spouse posting.

One term which is a modern term which has become attached to any "less processed soap" is to call it "lye soap." In soap processing, all soap is a combination of a hydroxide with fat so, if we consider all hydroxides "lye," then all soaps are lye soap. A very mild soap like Ivory still uses a hydroxide in its processing.

But, another complication. When checking a period dictionary (1861 Webster's Unabridged), lye was defined as "water impregnated with alkaline salt imbibed from the ashes of wood." That lye was potassium hydroxide which was often derived for home soap making by running water through an "ash hopper" where the person put their hardwood wood ash. Soap made from potassium hydroxide is soft soap. So the name "lye soap" could have been another term applied to homemade soft soap which was then extended in later years when sodium hydroxide was more available to any soap similar to what you could make at home with minimal processing. Because homemade soap isn't processed any further than the thorough blending of the ingredients which are then aged to allow the saponification reaction to occur, it has a characteristic feel caused by all the glycerin still being in the soap. So it seems that bar soap made with limited post-reaction processing has acquired the generic modern name of "lye soap." And to go one step further, the modern implication is that lye soap is harsh whereas, if thoroughly blended to remove all lye pockets in the mix, the opposite is often true. The extra glycerin helps make it less drying.

If anyone has a period reference that refers to bar soap as "lye soap," if they could please share it. Otherwise, we may want to try to develop a different term. In a quick search of articles from January 1861 through February 1862, I found the following references to soap: soft soap, white soap, white curd soap, palm oil soap, yellow soap, fine soap, Castile soap, and olive soap. There was also an article in Godey's that suggested as a money saving device to buy soap in large quantities and cut it into pieces of about a pound each (This latter article might hint at an interesting scenario. With additional digging, it might be possible to find out if the army received their soap in a huge block and then cut off a chunk for each regiment's or company's ration. Wouldn't that make an interesting scenario -- an issuing of the soap ration?)

So should we be using a different term for soap in reenacting? If we are referring to minimally processed bar soap, from the list above, maybe the best term would be "yellow soap."

My two cents.

Michael Mescher

[Hank Trent]

Re: Soap on campaign

LYE SOAP, a simple square of it is fine.

Well, I agree that it's "fine," meaning nobody will question it and it's undoubtedly a typical representation of period soap for soldiers.

But do you have documentation that lye soap was issued in squares? What size were they when they got into an individual soldier's hand for the first time? How regularly were they issued (surely not every few days in tiny pieces comparable to rations) and would there have been any attempt to issue soap at all on campaign? And that's not even addressing the issue... if there were soldiers assigned as cooks, did they receive a higher proportion of the soap that was due to the company, since they had to wash more pots and pans?

I can guess as well as the next guy what was PEC based on common sense, but I'm curious if there's any actual evidence about this, rather than just reenactor lore about what everybody knows or anyone can guess.

In a quick search of the ORs, I couldn't find anything except that soap came in boxes, and one mention complaining about what was given out at Camp Chase: "the soap very much poorer than the yellow bar soap commonly issued"

Way out west, an inspector noted "twelve-pound boxes of soap weighed ten pounds" indicating the size of the boxes, but not the pieces of soap within.

Another random factoid concerning the Confederate side: A raid made by a Federal force captured "eight cars loaded chiefly with grain, the railroad and Quartermaster's store-houses, in which were tents, boxes of haversacks, canteens, knapsacks, harnesses, and Quartermaster's property in abundance, the Commissary's store-houses, filled with meal, corn, a number of barrels of soft soap, some flour, etc...."

Another quick search showed that a soldier was accused of stealing "seven bed sacks, one soldier's overcoat, two pairs trowsers, one tent cover, twenty bed sacks, six blankets, five dozen knives, five dozen forks, twenty-six bars soap, two tents..." etc. from the quartermaster's storehouse at Fort Columbus, New York harbor, implying perhaps that it was already cut or molded to bar size in the storehouse, but it's hard to say.

As I said, a piece of lye soap will do just fine for a soldier's impression, but I think there's a lot of missing knowledge that's worth exploring, in order to fully answer the original question.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Soap on campaign

I agree, Hank, and wish I had an answer myself. I don't, but would like to suggest a few more places to look and things to consider. In addition to issue soap, we can look for soap among the items provided by the Sanitary Commission and sutlers. Page 529 of the Revised Regulations lists both "shaving soap" and plain old "soap" as among the items typically carried by the latter.

This leads me to think that, in addition to whatever form "army soap" came in, just about any type commercially available might have found its way into the ranks of the union army.

And if soap is in anyway analogous to stationery or other supplies made by a number of firms across the country, there's no reason to assume that just one type or brand was procured by the War Department.

That said, I found it interesting that the article I recently read by General Morris (his 1866 address to the Royal United Service Institute) mentions soap twice, in apparently contradictory ways.

First:

[On campaign] The men carried coffee, sugar, salt, crackers, and extra ammunition in their knapsacks; and did not carry razors, soap, brushes, looking-glasses, blacking, pumice-stone, or pipe-clay. This “light-marching order” enabled an army of a hundred thousand troops to abandon a base, for twenty days at a time, and to accomplish rapid marches of miles by hundreds.

But later, he writes:

The knapsack should not ordinarily contain more than one pair of shoes, one pair of socks, one pair of drawers, one under-shirt, a small piece of soap, a small bottle of oil, and a few pieces of cloth to clean the rifle. The hair, if kept short, requires no comb or brush, and is sufficiently dressed when washed with the face. In the field, no soldier should be allowed to shave.

OK, not only have I not answered the question, but now I wonder what the "small bottle of oil" looked like :)

[Hank Trent]

Re: Soap on campaign

In addition to issue soap, we can look for soap among the items provided by the Sanitary Commission and sutlers.

Didn't post it above because I was trying to look for army-issued soap, but one of the few descriptions of soldiers actually receiving soap was from the Christian Commission, giving soap to parolled prisoners:

I distributed Castile soap in little bits to them, that it might go the farther, men the while holding their hands under the cakes to catch any grains that might fall.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[lukegilly13]

Re: Soap on campaign

Check this out:
"April 21st 1864. Camp of the 3rd S. C. Reg, near Gordonsville, Va.

Dearest Sister-

. . . It was very reviving to me tho tiard from the march and very to little to eat yet amidest theas tryals the eavning and night past a way very pleasant to me. And after Sleeping and dreaming about home I was aroused from my Slumbers by the drum and sone we was on the march without eny thing to eat for breakfast, and we had to march to this place before we could get eny rations which was 7 miles to go today. And to our surprise when we got hear, we drawde more at one time than we have draude in 6 months before. First draude corn meal one and a fourth bb pr day to the man, bacon one third of a bb per day.
And boath very good quality mocb better than we ever draude in Eas Tennessee. And also draude Some Shugar & coffee a nof to give us a cup full to the man one a day. And Some Soap the first Soap we have goten in more than 6 months. And also some rice. Three days rations of each and all."
Source:http://www.fdu.com/family/civilwarletters.htm

Anyone know anything about the 3rd S.C. in April of '64? Just wondering if they were comming off of campaign, going on campaign, or currently on campaign at the time of the letter. Sounds to me like the soap this time was definatly issued. A little later letter reveals different as he thanks his sister for more soap among other items!

[Emmanuel Dabney]

Re: Soap on campaign

First, the 3rd South Carolina Infantry was a part of Kershaw's/Conner's/Kennedy's Brigade in Longstreet's Corps. Previous to April 1864, Longstreet's Corps left Virginia in September 1864 for Georgia where of course the 3rd SC was deployed at Chickamauga. They were at Campbell's Station, Knoxville, Fort Sanders, and Bean's Station in November and December 1863. The corps was brought back to Virginia just before the spring 1864 campaign started.

In Earl Hess's new book on Petersburg he has a couple of quotes from letters regarding the lack of soap in Lee's army.

I do think there seemingly was less soap than our 21st century noses are used to but when everyone smells and everything smells and you know that is unlikely to change then perhaps you deal.

[Enfilade]

Re: Soap on campaign

This excerpt from "General Robert F. Hoke, Lee's Modest Warrior" by Daniel W. Broadfoot...

"As the snow melted, the resulting mire made sanitary conditions in the army camps south of Fredericksburg almost intolerable. Soap had become a precious comodity. Its scarcity was a problem in all the brigades. Hoke's quick actions demonstrated his concern for the well being of his soldiers and did much to gain the respect of the newly arrived regiments. Always resourceful, Hoke dispatched a detail of his soldiers to Lincoln County(NC) to pick up a quantity of pots and utensils. When they returned, Hoke used his background in industry to convert the dead animals around his camp into a vast quantity of soap. Upset about Hoke's oversupply of soap and unaware of how it had come about, a Texas general lodged a protest with General Lee, claiming that the authorities were showing partiality to Hoke. When Lee summoned Hoke to his headquarters, the "secret" source was revealed. Hoke informed Lee that he had more soap than he could ever use and expressed a willingness to send wagonloads of the product to other brigades. Delighted with Hoke's ingenuity, Lee returned to his tent, where he issued orders for the complaining general to report to Hoke for a lesson in soap making."

Mark Berrier
North State Rifles

http://www.northstaterifles.com

[Hank Trent]

Re: Soap on campaign

When they returned, Hoke used his background in industry to convert the dead animals around his camp into a vast quantity of soap.

Well that's pretty cool. I'd guess that the other ingredient he used would be campfire ashes to leach lye, which would produce soft soap most easily, as Michael Mescher mentioned above. The addition of salt could produce hard soap, but under such scarcity, I suspect they might have been satisfied with soft soap and not wanted to waste the salt. If so, it would make something even as simple as the kind of soap, specific to a time and place.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com

[RJSamp]

Re: Soap on campaign

Well, I agree that it's "fine," meaning nobody will question it and it's undoubtedly a typical representation of period soap for soldiers.

But do you have documentation that lye soap was issued in squares? W
hanktrent@gmail.com

Why don't you call up Procter and Gamble and see how they sold soap to the government from 1861-1865...wouldn't be surprised if they had a historian that might be able to tell you.....Gamble was the soap maker.

I actually thought they issued yellow soap in 'bars'....whatever that means. I thought the men had 'pieces' of soap which would employ some cutting with a knife. Throw a chunk of soda ash + pig fat soap in a poke sack Hank and enjoy.

Many references to barrels of soap being issued form quartermaster stores......but if it was a homogeneous mass it would be kind of hard to dig out of there? maybe that's why there's many references to pieces of soap.

[RJSamp]

Re: Soap on campaign

This is Virginia's spouse posting.

One term which is a modern term which has become attached to any "less processed soap" is to call it "lye soap." In soap processing, all soap is a combination of a hydroxide with fat so, if we consider all hydroxides "lye," then all soaps are lye soap. A very mild soap like Ivory still uses a hydroxide in its processing.

But, another complication. When checking a period dictionary (1861 Webster's Unabridged), lye was defined as "water impregnated with alkaline salt imbibed from the ashes of wood." That lye was potassium hydroxide which was often derived for home soap making by running water through an "ash hopper" where the person put their hardwood wood ash. Soap made from potassium hydroxide is soft soap. So the name "lye soap" could have been another term applied to homemade soft soap which was then extended in later years when sodium hydroxide was more available to any soap similar to what you could make at home with minimal processing. Because homemade soap isn't processed any further than the thorough blending of the ingredients which are then aged to allow the saponification reaction to occur, it has a characteristic feel caused by all the glycerin still being in the soap. So it seems that bar soap made with limited post-reaction processing has acquired the generic modern name of "lye soap." And to go one step further, the modern implication is that lye soap is harsh whereas, if thoroughly blended to remove all lye pockets in the mix, the opposite is often true. The extra glycerin helps make it less drying.

If anyone has a period reference that refers to bar soap as "lye soap," if they could please share it. Otherwise, we may want to try to develop a different term. In a quick search of articles from January 1861 through February 1862, I found the following references to soap: soft soap, white soap, white curd soap, palm oil soap, yellow soap, fine soap, Castile soap, and olive soap. There was also an article in Godey's that suggested as a money saving device to buy soap in large quantities and cut it into pieces of about a pound each (This latter article might hint at an interesting scenario. With additional digging, it might be possible to find out if the army received their soap in a huge block and then cut off a chunk for each regiment's or company's ration. Wouldn't that make an interesting scenario -- an issuing of the soap ration?)

So should we be using a different term for soap in reenacting? If we are referring to minimally processed bar soap, from the list above, maybe the best term would be "yellow soap."

My two cents.

Michael Mescher

Around these parts, people made their own Lye soap back in the 19th century. Hog fat and ash from the fireplace....Webster's 1861 clinical definition having nothing to do with reality.

Agree that yellow soap issued in barrels, blocks, bars would be sent to the front and 'issued' to troops much like any ration.....cut in pieces to weight per 'ration'...

[Hank Trent]

Re: Soap on campaign

Around these parts, people made their own Lye soap back in the 19th century. Hog fat and ash from the fireplace....Webster's 1861 clinical definition having nothing to do with reality.

I don't think anyone is saying that people didn't make their own soap in the 19th century. The question is, what did they call it, and/or what did the phrase "lye soap" mean to them? I agree with Michael Mescher that the phrase "lye soap" shows up rarely in the numerous period mentions of all kinds of soap, from homemade to imported, and I suspect it wasn't used then like we use it now. Could you provide some documentation for your assertion that "lye soap" was the common name for homemade (hard? soft?) soap in the 1860s, if that's what you're asserting?

For example, the phrase "lye soap" doesn't appear in the ORs, but "bar soap," "soft soap," and "castile soap" do. In google books pre-1865, there's only one hit for "lye soap" as a name for a kind of soap, not counting random appearances of the words near each other and a couple misdated books, but several hits for soda soap, hard soap, soft soap, homemade soap, yellow soap, etc.

Speaking of the cheap yellow soap that's mentioned so often... apparently it was made with resin, which is not what the average "old time" soap maker makes today.

Naturally, the war would have affected the supply of resin from the south that was available to the north. Even the Brits were worried. So I wonder, was "yellow soap" issued by the north during the war still made with resin from another source than the Tar Heels, or did it become just a name for any cheap soap such as our modern "lye soap" that yellows with age?

Agree that yellow soap issued in barrels, blocks, bars would be sent to the front and 'issued' to troops much like any ration.....cut in pieces to weight per 'ration'...

If soap was cut in pieces to weight per ration, each man would get a fraction of an ounce with the other daily rations that were issued to him. I just don't think that's how it was done--seems impractical to be slicing soap that small. So, any information on how often or what sizes were meant to be issued, aside from the practical considerations of how often it was actually done that way?

It's possible the difference between soap in barrels and soap in boxes was soft soap and hard soap--common sense would indicate each would be easier to pack those ways. This navy report (about three quarters of the way down) lists three kinds of soap, the hard soap by pounds and the soft soap by barrels, perhaps indicating a common difference in packaging.

Yes, reenactors can just throw a piece of "lye soap" in a bag and forget about it, and that will be good enough for any reenactment, but this is the AC forum, where it's supposedly acceptible to discuss documented details, rather than just offering generalizations that are good enough to get by.

Hank Trent
hanktrent@gmail.com