Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

[Jimmayo]

Original Lorenz rammers

The non-dug rammer is missing the brass ring but you can see the torque hole and the channel where the ring is supposed to be. It does exhibit some hammering on the end where it has been dropped into the barrel through the years. It also drops into the barrel with more than adequate clearence in the bore.
This Lorenz was brought back from the war by Oren Fletcher, Co. E of the 11th Pa. Cav.
The dug example has the ring still intact. It was found near a Federal Trench was in Petersburg.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

Not necessarily relating to the Lorenz, but I have read an account of Union troops at the battle of Ezra Church during the Atlanta Campaign urinating down their rifle barrels to break up the fouling. Not only would the odor be interesting but I would think one would have to be very careful putting such a tender part of the anatomy in close proximity to a hot rifle barrel.
Tom Dodson
47th Ga

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

You're the man, Jim! Looks like you're right. Attached is a pic of a mint Lorenz from the JH Kurtz collection.

I will see if I can get a pic of the rammer inserted into the end of the muzzle and maybe throw some calipers on the rammer and bore. Will post what I find.

Mystery Solved!!

[Hargis, G. 5 A-1]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

I always thought a clean bore was better than fouled.
However after perusing "Report of experiments on gunpowder, made at Washington arsenal, in 1843 and 1844" By Alfred Mordecai, I'm starting to reassess.
Using a ballistic pendulum, his muzzle velocity readings were higher from fouled tubes than clean ones — with some of the smoothbores he was testing, anyway.
A side note on testing: he lists muzzle velocity up close and at 500 yards ….
500 yards!
That means he had to hit the target with muskets at that rather long distance. What de he know that we and pumpkin slingers’ detractors don’t know?
Google the title above for a fun read
Glen

[markmason]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

I dont post on here much but I did measure a original dropped minnies and vary .569-.572 at the skirt. They weigh less than modern minnies cast and used today. I even took a original minnie and it dropped halfway down the barrel of my repo enfield musket..yep you guess it...I fired and sent it back into history:tounge_sm

Cleaner rounds are all they had to use during a battle..did they work? who knows but ya find many relic hunting..

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the XII Corps (at Gburg) had units pulled off the line on Culps Hill and replaced with fresh troops, for the specific intention of the former unit being able to clean their rifles.

I will find the book that I read this in... Gimme a lil bit of time. :wink_smil

I can't recall if any of the XII Corps guys had Lorenz rifles, but I suppose this applies to the original question.

Sincerely,

[FlankersMess]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

I would bet my britches that is a repro rod. The originals have a hole through the tulip behind the brass band. Also there is too much steel on the leading edge of the tulip. I have two originals and will try and post a picture later if anyone is interested.

Looks like there is a hole there, it is just under the barrel and hard to see, but you can see the outer limits of it.

[Guy Gane III]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

Sorry it took so long, but I'm in the process of moving, so that has taken up more time...

Anyhow, this is what I was talking about...
================================================== ===
[Twelfth Army Corps, Second Division, 1st Brigade, Brig. Gen. John W. Geary commanding. 7th Ohio, Colonel William R. Creighton, commanding. (282 aggragate total/18 casualties)]

Gettysburg: A Testing of Courage by Noah Andre Trudeau

Page 444, 1st paragraph...

By now (8-8:30pm, July 3rd) the Federals defending Culp's Hill were operating in shifts. A soldier in the 7th Ohio later described the businesslike routine: "We lay behind our solid breastworks, obeying the command to reserve our fire until the first [enemy] line of battle was well up the slope and in easy range, when the command, 'Front rank - Ready - Aim low - Fire!' was given and executed, and immediately the rear rank the same, and kept up as long as the [enemy's] line remained unbroken." When the men had shot off the sixty or so rounds they carried, a reserve regiment would be drawn up under cover behind them, and at the word of command the reinforcements would rush forward to replace the first batch of troops, who would filter back a short distance one by one. There they would reform, clean their guns, replenish their cartridge boxes, and rest until it was their turn again. "This is the first time our Regiment ever fought behind breastworks or fortifications, and all agree that it is a pretty good way to fight," wrote an Ohio officer.
================================================== ===
From all that I have read in the past, I can't recall having read this happening before...

Makes me wonder if anyone has ever come across a reference if this has happened before... perhaps Fredericksburg?

[Tom Craig]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

One thing that has not been discussed here is the chemical make up of the blackpowder itself. I don't have any documentation on this, but a few years back a pard of mine did a little comparison testing between some allegedly original powder that he had (came from original cartridge packs that had broken open) and several brands of modern powder.

In some home made "burn tests" this pard discovered that the period powder left more of of a dry "ashy" residue, where the modern powder left an "oily/greasy" residue.

A call to Goex yielded the answer that today the US Navy is the number one consumer of black powder, which they use for set up charges on their biggest guns (it's been a few years, and I am a little sketchy on the exact terminology). Supposedly the Navy wanted/needed the powder cooled down a bit so as to not burn so hot or with top force, so (Goex at least) adds in some more inert material that reduces the combustion, hence leaving the junk in our barrels.

To turn to a documented source, Congdon's Cavalry Compedium (written during the war) advises that troopers merely needed a brush and some water with which to clean their guns, and actually advises the soldier NOT to take apart his gun for cleaning. If you use modern repros and modern powder, there is no way that your carbine will continue to function after a weekend of shooting without taking the mechanism completely apart for cleaning due to the built up fowling.

Take care,
Tom Craig

[OldState]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

During the May 12th assaults at Spotsylvania, Erasmus C. Gilbreath of the 20th Indiana stated, "Men tore pieces of their clothing to wipe out their gun with, and went to work firing again."

This quotation was cited in Blue & Gray magazines recent article on the battle.

[guad42]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

Thoughts on this overall discussion:

This past Friday I had the opportunity to do a live fire shoot for work; firing both my Pedersoli M1816 Type III (Flint) and my Euroarms M1841 Rifle. I fired some 15 .672 balls from the 1816 with absolutely no fouling; though I realize I was running a slightly smaller ball, but still had accuracy at 50 yards or so. Only the last two balls rammed home showed much resistance.

I've recently read some F&I War material that discussed the use of the Brown Bess by Rangers and Militia (seemingly more common than use of rifled guns), that described the use of a smaller ball for ease of loading, especially when fouling accumulated in the barrel. It was interesting to see this first hand. I wonder now about the actual size of the .69 Caliber balls used in the ACW by units still sporting smoothbores.

My "Mississippi" Rifle on the other hand was a chore to load after three balls; but accurate. I can now see why Scott and Taylor still favored the smoothbore during the Mex-Am war.

-Sam Dolan

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Wiping a Musket Bore During Battle

Hallo!

"I wonder now about the actual size of the .69 Caliber balls used in the ACW by units still sporting smoothbores."

NUG, the nominal size of a round ball for the .69 muskets was .650.

The older generation British muskets such as the Long Land Pattern and the New Short Land Pattern allowed a greater "tolerance" so that bores often varied between .71 and .80. The British Board of Ordnance set the ".75" ball at .685.
Although, NUG, typically, the exchange of rounds between British and American lines was often as low as 4-5 before the bayonet was fixed and used to decide the issue.

Curt