4th Corporal

[Doughboy]

Can anyone tell me what the duties of the different corporals are? I have run across the designation "4th Corporal" which begs the idea that there must be a 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I don't have Kautz available and am not sure it is even in there.
Thanks
Christopher Wilson

[Stonewall_Greyfox]

Re: 4th Corporal

Link to Kautz's Customs of Service for Non-Commissioned Officers and Soldiers:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jHgDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP2&dq=inauthor:kautz&lr=&as_drrb_is=b&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=1850&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=1865&as_brr=0

Why don't you report back on what you find.

Paul B.

[john duffer]

Re: 4th Corporal

Corporals are numbered by size, there's no seniority of one or another.

[Doughboy]

Re: 4th Corporal

Actually it would appear (thanks Paul for the link) that the numbers have to do with their relief duties in posting guard. 1st corporal would have first relief, 2nd, second etc. It would also stand to reason that it is a statement of seniority or at least standing within the company.
Christopher Wilson

[Silas]

Re: 4th Corporal

What Duffer said. Casey, too : http://books.google.com/books?id=cmoDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA12 See para's 15 and 31.

[Michael Comer]

Re: 4th Corporal

Christopher,

If you think about it, it just makes sense to have them by height. After all, you have the rest of the company by height and want that uniform look. Why screw it up by having one of the shortest guys on the right as 1st corporal just because he has some seniority.

I would like to know what you're seeing that gives the impression that the numbers designate guard shifts. I'm curious about that one. Again, nobody's going to want to be a 3rd corporal if your consigned to the 3rd shift of guard duty every night. You and your section are going to revolt or desert eventually - if you're awake enough after having no decent rest because your night is constantly broken up by having to pull a duty shift.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 4th Corporal

Hallo!

"Corporals are numbered by size, there's no seniority of one or another."

IMHO, that can be tricky.

In brief and to over-generalize...

Kautz in 301 relates that:

"Non-commissioned officers, like commissioned officers, rank according to date of commissions or warrants in the same grade."

In 374:

"In advancing non-commissioned officers from one grade to another, no claim of seniority is considered, except where the merits of the two candidates are equal; then the senior in date should be appointed."

This also works in reductions.

My wife had a relative who advanced from corporal to 5th Sergeant. When orders came down eliminating 5th Sergeants, he was not happy aobut returning to being the least senior corporal and getting bumped. He petitioned for some time at the pay difference, but it is not known whether he won the argument.

This does raise an interesting question as to the seniority of officers and non-comissioned officers within a regiment as in reenacting we rarely deal with other than company (rather than regimental senorities) placements in the line as to how seniority plays out with the ten company order.

Curt

[Mudslinger]

Re: 4th Corporal

Chris,

I decided to dust off and break out my Kautz manual. Here it is:

Corporal, 327.
"Ordinarily, a guard consists of a lieutenant and sergeant of the guard, and three corporals, one to each relief. As soon as the guard has marched on, it divided into three reliefs. The senior corporal is assigned to the first relief, the next to the second, and the third as relief."

Senior corporal IMO is not defined as first corporal in this. So what is a senior corporal exactly senior to? The guard before him? Senior to the other corporals as written? This is the only mention of a "senior corporal" that I have seen in the manuals. More to follow.

[Doughboy]

Re: 4th Corporal

Clearly I am reading into the quote above. It was the only reference I could find actually numbering corporals so I took it literally. I did not mean to infer that there was a "senior" corporal, but if there is (was) a 1st, 2nd 3rd it would stand to reason that there is in some sense a hierarchy whether based on merit or something. Not necessarily true. However there is clearly reference in the official records of soldiers an official designation "4th corporal" etc. which seems to imply that it is based on something more than just size.
Christopher Wilson

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 4th Corporal

Hallo!

Naw...

When forming the company, it just makes it easier to "insert the corporals" at the squad breaks when the lads know where to go rather than milling around and fighting over who gets to go where.

Just a-funnin'...

;) :)

Curt
Once a Corpral with Strips Mess
(A private Burkittsville joke)

[rebelmcal]

Re: 4th Corporal

Good to read the info on Corporals. As I'm 6ft 4ins and already 1st Corporal..well I guess that about makes me safe. Seriously, though it's great to finally be able to put this to bed as there have been discussiuons as to the seniority of NCO's rank within our group.
Liam

[Lee Ragan]

Re: 4th Corporal

From what I'd read in the manuals and have seen in diagrams, the 1st Corporal was at the right end of the first platoon (and the Company), while the 2nd Corporal was at the left end of the first platoon, the third Corporal was at next to him as the right end of the second platoon and finally the 4th Corporal was at the end of the 2nd platoon and company. These position are all in the front rank in line of battle.When the company was broken into platoons, there would be a Corporal on each end of the front rank to serve as guides.
Is this not correct?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: 4th Corporal

Hallo!

I was just on my way out, so at the risk of memory and not pulling teh manuals...

No, tis more complicated.

Ideally, there are eight corporals "anchoring the ends of the front rank's four sections of the two platoons of a company.

Right to left, they are paired in sections numbered 1-4 right to left as (starting on the right) 1 and 5, 6 and 2, 3 and 7, and 8 and 4.
The first and fourth corporal being on the right and left of the company's front rank.

From right to left: 1,5,6,2,3,7,8,4.

Or, looking AT the company, 4,8,7,3,2,6,5,1

Over and out.

Curt

[Michael Comer]

Re: 4th Corporal

Chris,

I decided to dust off and break out my Kautz manual. Here it is:




Senior corporal IMO is not defined as first corporal in this. So what is a senior corporal exactly senior to? The guard before him? Senior to the other corporals as written? This is the only mention of a "senior corporal" that I have seen in the manuals. More to follow.

Well, that's one I missed! It does raise some questions doesn't it?

[Doughboy]

Re: 4th Corporal

And again, if it is fluid as to merely one's position in the ranks, why would it appear as a designation on the soldier's record? I should stipulate the record I am citing is for a CS soldier. Not sure if it appears in US records
Thanks for the replies
Christopher Wilson