Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

[guad42]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Gentlemen (and anyone else reading this),

I have to agree with Don Smith in his post from this morning, and I also have to agree with others that have stated that the article linked earlier this week is pretty poor; making an argument for using standard CS uniforms as it does, almost seems as if its an argument being made because someone really wants to. Its a poor argument.

The only thing I will agree on with the author is that the Peticolas memoir of the event is a good read for a student on this campaign.

I am also curious about this statement: "...very few Union Troops, especially in an out of the way place like New Mexico would have actually worn kepis..."

This is based on the authors insistance that the illustrations are meant to show kepis rather than forage caps, and as I remember these illustrations are crude in style (comparitive to the Chamberlain illustrations of the Mex-Am War). My other criticism of articles like this, and these sorts of statements, is that I do not much care for statements made that do not really involve research.

Sounds more like people that are really bummed out about having to wear civilian clothing, or "unusual" impressions.

Just for fun, I will ask, does anyone else remember reading about Hunter's Confederates at Picacho using Hall Carbines?

Sam Dolan
1st Texas Inf.

[KPavia]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Thanks for your input, Sam.

As I stated in opening this thread, my purpose was to acquire additional sources of information on the uniforms of the southwest. I posted this article so that its contents could either be confirmed or countered with additional information. If you disagree with the article, then you may say so, but then please present the research that you know of that causes you to disagree, thereby enlightening us all. If you, generally speaking, just want to post and say that the article sucks and ya esta then please restrain yourself. I think we'd all agree that that those posts don't add nor contain much substance and is off topic.

Thanks to all who have added much appreciated additional insight and points to research. And I hate to act like a mod but I did start this thread and feel responsibilty for it.

[guad42]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Kenny,

A good friend of mine, Garrett Roberts of Northern Arizona, has spent a great deal of time researching the New Mexico campaign. If you'd like to reach him, I am sure that could be arranged, just send me an PM.

Garrett is a really good person, and a good researcher.

Regards,

Sam Dolan

[csuniforms]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates-Research

Having read the article just minutes ago, I have to state the author did not convince me that the Confederate Quartermaster in Texas issued a certain style of Depot jacket or uniform clothing as such to Sibley's Command. The question needs a lot more research to reach any type of conclusion on what Sibley's men wore during the months of February through April 1862. That said, the people of Texas provided much of, if not all of the clothing used by the Texas troops in service during the Fall of 1861 and Spring of 1862, under the Great Appeal. The August of 1861 request by the Confederate War Department for the Governors of the Southern States to ask the good people of the South to make up and provide clothing for the troops. The Government unable to provide for 200,000 men in service.-- That a lot of civilian or para-military clothing, homemade was available in Texas, one only has to look at the Newspapers of the time to understand how well Texas was organized for the Great Appeal. Fred Adolphus, should be consulted on this one. From my research, and it is not conclusive, no quartermaster documents or unread papers, letters, or diaries, I would venture a very good guess that Sibley's men wore their "injun fighting" or "scoutin'" clothes on campaign. that a Texas star, belt buckle, homemade jacket, or "fringed shirt" might be seen in the ranks?? Who knows.... Civilian clothing, homespun shirts, pants, and coats... of course.

CSuniforms
Tom Arliskas

Forgive me if this topic has been discussed before but I've searched the AC for it but have not been able to find it.

I've been doing a bit of research into the uniforms of the confederate army that operated in New Mexico from 1861-1862 because all I've been able to find online is that the regular enlisted man wore nothing but civilian clothes or captured Federal uniforms while only the officers were issued official confederate clothing. While knowing that those options were worn by confederates in the southwest, I find it hard to believe that they wore nothing but civilian/militia/federal uniforms. In my searching, I came across this article that addresses this issue and I wanted to share it with the AC community and open this up to discussion in order for me to see what other sources of knowledge are out there that I have been unable to find.

Here is the link to the article
http://www.swcwa.com/Confederate_Shell_Jackets.pdf

Thanks ahead of time for any further sources that are provided here.

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Ken & All,

Sherrod Hunters diary is in Tucson & is available to researchers. I know Rich Saahtoff went through these pretty thoroughly. Lots of excellent information.

Living here in AZ I had the opportunity to see many of the sites Hunter mentions.

As far as the uniformage, or lack there of, I would suggest looking over original photos of the Texans who came out & compare them to Morgan Wolf Merrick's Diary “From Desert to Bayou".

Merrick, pre war, was a surveyor and an accurate artist in what he rendered as far as the details go. (Showing details like the bolt heads and their placement on wagons accurately, as well as the type of wagon, Detail identifying exactly what weapon is being used, etc)

Unfortunately, while the materiel culture is drawn wonderfully, his human figures are not so well done, but the materiel detail is very accurate and identifiable.

He shows in his diary the troops he was a part of heading out to New Mexico were wearing:

1) Contingents in full US issue uniforms and equipment

2) Contingents in Work Clothing (IE Over shirts, Work Trousers, Broad Brimmed Hats)

3) Contingents in commutation military clothing made (for that particular company sketched).

All consistent with known & identified photos of Texans who were apart of the 4th & 5th Texas Mounted Vols who are seen wearing every thing from broad checked shirts and caps to M1858 dress hats with hat device and US issue mounted service jackets. As well as everything in between......So far I have not encountered a fringed jacket;)....but plenty of work clothing (untrimmed over shirts and denim or canvas trousers) & broad brimmed hats


The uniformage out here is largely dependent on "what" company of "what" unit is being researched. It is very specific, and there are no broad generalities to go by or use out here.


The up side is the information for the Texans, Californians, New Mexicans and Coloradoans who served and fought in the South West during the war exists and is accessible

The down side (for some), is that while the information is plentiful, it is not in many known published sources, & takes doing some digging, research trips to archives, and surveying photos and artifacts.


Hope this helps

Don S

[CSchneider]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

As far as proper research and simple reasoning goes, that article is rather sub-par. I don't know much of anything about uniforms in the Southwest overall, but I can assure you that there is nothing about Cleaver's uniform that indicates government production. I haven't seen them in awhile, but the various pieces (including the double breasted frock, vest, and trousers associated with the jacket) appear to have been made by the same hands, utilize materials that I haven't seen used in any government clothing, and, at least in the case of one piece, include a label from a San Antonio tailor.

"It does not look at all like a tailor-made officer's jacket," the author contends. In fact, it looks exactly like a tailor-made officer's jacket.

-Craig Schneider

[GreencoatCross]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Would the Burton Marchbanks (30th Texas Cavalry) uniform pictured in Echoes of Glory on page 146 be similar to the type of clothing worn by Confederates serving throughout the New Mexico and Arizona territories? The uniform was not used near those areas but rather during Marchbanks' service in northeastern Texas and Indian Territory (Oklahoma). I'm only using it at a somewhat broad, general example of one type of clothing that might have been worn.

[tmdreb]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Brian,

It's quite possible that clothing like Murchbanks' was seen in the NM and AZ territories. I would like to point out that his coat isn't simply a sack coat. I haven't personally viewed it, but after seeing another photo of it and talking to the man who examined the clothing shortly after it was donated to the museum where it resides, I think there's more to it.

In addition to showing clothing used on the Sibley campaign, the Merrick journal shows some pre-War clothing worn out West. These seem to be predominantly overshirts and very short sack coats that look very much like what's commonly referred to as a "four button jacket" these days.

We also have the references in Army Blue and other sources that soldiers of the US Army often wore overshirts on campaign in the West prior to the War, often being cut all the way open in front and worn like a coat. There's an image of Bigfoot Wallace wearing one of these.

I would expect that most men were clothed rather simply and humbly. A soldier of the 42nd Massachusetts Infantry, captured at the Battle of Galveston on January 1, 1863 had this to say about his captors:

they were dressed in all kinds of clothing[,] no two being alike[.] if you could gather all the rag pickers and beggars that are in New England they could scarcely compare with the Texan soldiers[.]

Yes, this was after Sibley's campaign, but many of his men participated in this battle, and I don't think this assessment would be far off in describing those men a few months earlier.

[bill carson]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y123/erikvonerik/elpaso.jpg

here is afforementioned 1861 El Paso Tx jacket c. 1861


Bill Carson
1st NC Vols/11th NCST

[D F Smith Historic]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Hi All,

Brian-
I had the opportunity to make a copy of the Marchbank's Coat from the pictures of it when it was conserved. It is a neat garment!

As Phil points out, it is not a sack coat. In pattern it is closer to an English Walking Coat. It is a civilian pattern made with CS military type cloth. And was probably along with the trousers and shirt made for specific use in the CS TX Cav by Marchbank’s, rather than being a converted Civilian garment.

This being said, from what I have seen, It would be a good choice for New Mexico Campaign impression , along with the use of Civilian work clothing & Early Issue US Uniforms

Bill,

The picture you posted has confusing provenance, as it is also associated with another of a fellow in the same style uniform, complete with upturned hat with Ordinance Dept hat device, In general this uniform is associated with Louisiana troops early in the war.

While it is a very neat picture, it more than likely is not one of one of the Texas Vols that was in The Army of New Mexico, due to the lack of provenance.

Don S

[KPavia]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

I would just like to thank everyone for all of their input. You all have given me plenty to go on. I'm a rookie as far as researching goes so I have a long, fun learning experience ahead of me.:)

[Joe Walker]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Marchbanks' coat is built like a sack in the front, and a frock in the back. The garmet has a name that starts with a "P". My mind fails me on this.


Joe Walker

[Huck]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Can we see any photos of said coat.

[tmdreb]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

Marchbanks' coat is built like a sack in the front, and a frock in the back. The garmet has a name that starts with a "P". My mind fails me on this.


Joe Walker

The word is Paletot.

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Uniforms of the southwestern confederates

This oughta get you in the ballpark:wink_smil



Other reads beyond Merrick:
Fourteen Hundred and 91 Days in the Confederate Army
That one will take some searching and work but once you get access it is worth it. Does not go into New Mexico, but gives good insight into Sibley's Brigade.
Read Jerry Thompson's writings, both book and articles.