Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

[Pritchett Ball]

I have a wonderful reproduction of a British Enfield Cartridge box made by Butch Meyers.
It appears to be made with the correct dimensions as correct reproduction Enfield style cartridges fit perfectly in it.

I know we have several makers reproducing these boxes, L.D. Hanning, Jarnagin, Heritage Leathers…

A friend of mine has had his hands on two Enfield style boxes, He thinks that they were made from someone years back by the name of Czercanski (SP?). The size of these 2 boxes tins are ½” SHORTER than mine!

The Tin on mine measures:
length: 6-5/8"
height: 3"
thickness (front to back):2-7/8"

We are curious about the following:
1. Were original Enfield style boxes made to specs of the same size?
2. Reproductions now made, do they copy originals correctly, or are they building boxes AROUND the tins they are getting, size not an issue?

If anyone out there has an original Enfield Box, we would sure like to know what the size of the tin inside is for comparison.
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

I can't speak for everyone, but the enfield box Tim Welch makes is copied from an original example. He provides the pics of the original and his copy side by side on his website. The one he made me also conforms very well to the size of originals I have examined at the Atlanta History Center. Hope that helps, Garrett

[coastaltrash]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

The maker of the box (if it indeed was Tom) certainly had a lot of access to quality originals in order to make his reproductions, including access to A LOT of English gear. I know for some time he was the only person making correct Horter, Magee and George products before he stepped out of the maker business.

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Garrett:

Could you post what the dimensions of the tin in your reproduction box are?
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[Garrett Silliman]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Sorry Kevin, I actually no longer have the box. If you asked real nice, Tim may give you the dimensions for the original he copied. That's his research and I wouldn't blame him if he didn't want to give that info out, but you could always ask. Good luck, Garrett

[erik]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

The reproduction Equipment for the Army, 1866, shows 4 different pouches whose external dimensions are similar. That for a pouch (rank and file) measures 7" by 3 1/4", which considering the thickness of the leather closely matches your dimensions. The leather used would be buff leather and quite substantial even if made Campbell & Co.
I would put even money on your tins being wrong.
Despite Campbell's problems with the War Department he would have made pouches to the sealed pattern at least for dimensions. The key here is 10 cartridges in their wrapper occupied a certain volume. You cannot cheat on the tin and build the box to match and then fit 50 cartridges.
These tins you speak of are reproductions and one wonders what original they copied?
To my knowledge, unlike leather, tin does not shrink.
Just my thoughts and references.

Erik Simundson

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Erik:

I'm not sure if we are talking about the same thing here.
What you refer to as a "pouch", is that the cartridge Box itself, or the cartridge pouch worn on the belt the British Soldier emptied his arsenal packs into prior to loading?
Respectfully:

Kevin Dally

[CS Ensign]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Kevin,

The tin in an unmarked original P1859 box that I have is
6 7/8" length
2 15/16" height
2 7/8" depth (front to back)

The repro Jarnagin tin I have is about 1/16" larger in all dimensions; the Tim Welch repro tin I have is about 1/16" smaller in all dimensions than the original.

I would say that the originals probably showed this much variance between different manufacturers.

I will see some more original boxes this next weekend; if they have tins I will post the sizes.

Best,
Greg

[Pritchett Ball]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Oh bless you young feller!:D

THAT is info I'm looking for, and a feller in Gatesville, Texas will sure be thankful also!

Kevin Dally
Wait a minute...did I say "young feller"? Gee am I so old now that I say things like that":cry_smile

[erik]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Kevin,
In the language of the British army of the time the 50 round pouch was just that a pouch. The 10 round device was called a ball bag. The container for caps was a pouch.
I can understand some differences in size based upon shrinkage or cost cutting contractors but blithley assume at least lip service to the sealed pattern. As I say the rounds did not change in diameter.
I have measured an original Ball bag. Its dimension are stated as 7 1/8" X 4 1/4".
The bag now measures 6 1/4" X 4 1/4".
It is certain that there were variations by contractor and are new variations as a result of age and shrinkage (don't we all know that one).
I still feel that the interior dimensions on an Enfield "box" would be relatively uniform as all contractors would measure from the sealed pattern as a guide.
A Quarter Master, Commander, Officer, NCO, Soldier would be vexed if he could only shove 45 rounds in a 50 round pouch.
The tinned partitions were made to fit the interior dimensions of a particular order.
I cannopt find my Sergeants pouch which has dsisappeared like all things in my den, that my brother once said, You don't enter Erik's den, you put it on like a jacket."

Erik Simundson

[LeatherHead]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Tin dimensions from originals in private collections:

in a "WD/broad arrow" English army-accepted "Pouch (Rank & File)" maker-stamped "R & W Almond/C & M/14 St. James St/1860"; 5 compartment
height; 3"
length; 6 7/8"
depth; 3 1/16"

in a "Pouch (Sergeants of Guards)" pattern pouch, but with a 5 compartment "rank & file" tin; with "S. Isaac, Campbell & Co/71 Jermyn St/London" broker or supplier stamp; 5 compartment
height; 3 1/16"
length; 6 7/8"
depth; 3"

in a "Pouch (Sergeants of Guards)" with English army unit issuance brands; 2 open compartments, with a hinged tin lid on a 3rd smaller compartment at one end;
"BO/broad arrow" stamped into bottom of tin; 'BO" is Board of Ordnance disbanded in 1855 & replaced by War Department "WD".
height; 3"
length; 6 5/8"
depth; 3"
lid; 1" by 2 7/8"

in a "Pouch (Rank & File of Guard)" with Grenadier Guards flap badge and issuance brands; 3 compartments;
height; 3 1/2"
length; 8 1/8"
depth; 3"

Those seriously interested in English regular army equipments should own a copy of Equipment of Infantry by Captain Martin Petrie, 1865 which was reprinted in 1986 as Arms & Equipment of the British Army, 1866, John Walter, ed. Another book to cherish (recent, 2007, and still available) is Soldiers' Accoutrements of the British Army 1750-1900 by Pierre Turner.

The pouch designations above come from Petrie, plate XV. Bear in mind these books deal solely with British regular army accoutrements. It is an important starting point, but starting point only, to begin to better understand the convolutions & distinctions of equipments provided to British colonial troops, bought by Volunteer units, made for open-market purchase to accompany the hundreds of thousands of Birmingham and London small arms trades P53s sold worldwide, US/Massachusetts imports and CS purchases run through the blockade and 3rd world knock-offs.....

Hope this is useful!

Dean Nelson
1st MD Infantry, CSA, N-SSA

descent: Private Alston Houston, Co. H, 30th VA Infantry; the "Sparta Greys"

[CS Ensign]

Re: Enfield Cartridge Box sizes

Kevin,

The tin in an unmarked original P1859 box that I have is
6 7/8" length
2 15/16" height
2 7/8" depth (front to back)

The repro Jarnagin tin I have is about 1/16" larger in all dimensions; the Tim Welch repro tin I have is about 1/16" smaller in all dimensions than the original.

I would say that the originals probably showed this much variance between different manufacturers.

I will see some more original boxes this next weekend; if they have tins I will post the sizes.

Best,
Greg

I neglected to add these tin dimensions before:
From an A. ROSS C&M 1861 marked box:
Width 6 3/4"
Depth 3 1/8"
Height 3 1/8"

From an S Isaac Campbell & Co marked box:
Width 6 3/4"
Depth 3 1/8"
Height 3"

Best,
Greg