Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

[Sad Spaceman]

I know the dark navy blue trousers were part of the 1858 uniform, but I can't find any real reliable documentation to when the sky blue trousers were introduced.
I am researching a zouave militia company and the desription is pretty open but it describes them as wearing red shirts hats and blue pants. its from a newspaper. similar to a description to the 11th New York and its from about the same time as Bull Run. I suspect a possible influence.

If the sky blue pants were not it issue at this time or limited issue, it would really help on my reconstruction of the uniform.

A P Coen

souce: May 3rd Issue of Nebraska City Daily News T. Morton

[NYCivilWar]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Check out our group's research page for info on dark and sky blue trousers:

http://www.libertyrifles.org/research/darkblues62.html

[ScottCross]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Well, you can't improve on the information that is posted on the Liberty Rifles website. It is all there and I approve. Well done.

[BarryDusel]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

The LR article is great. It answers the question . As a sidebar I have notes somewhere to the effect that in 1862 R.R.Brooke of the 53rd PVI admonished the quartermaster for forwarding dark blue trowsers to his regiment(53rd PVI) as they were no longer regulation. The trowsers were returned to stores and replaced with those of the new regulation.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Hallo!

Attempting to rein this one in...

An excellent resource on infantry trousers!

But I am confused.

Which blue color of Federal infantry trousers were Zouave militia pants again?

;)

Curt

[Sad Spaceman]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

The the article does not list a color for the zouaves in question. It just says blue.

[Pvt Schnapps]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

I'm going to throw out something a mite speculative, but at least supported in part by some numbers.

The Annual Report of the Secretary of War for 1862 contains a section on Quartermaster General activities. In this QMG Meigs reports procuring three million pairs of trowsers in fiscal year 1861-62 (July 1 to June 30). Half this period fell before G.O. 108, but given procurement lead times of 90 days and the purchase of light blue alongside dark blue kersey, it seems better to play it conservatively and estimate that a third (rather than half) of these were dark blue.

That would give us a million pairs of dark blue trousers. Meigs' end of war report doesn't list the number of trousers or uniform coats procured over the course of the war, but does give a total of some six million sack coats. Assuming procurement of 50% more trousers than coats (just going by the standard of issue in the Regs para. 1150) and at least a million frock coats, I'd guess a total of ten million trousers procured over the course of the war.

Tentative conclusion, then, would be that about 10% of the U.S. Army's trousers, over the course of the war, were dark blue. Most of these would have been worn in the first couple of years (before large stocks of light blue became available), but the fact that, as Mr. Dusel points out, some were rejected for issue after 1861 as not being standard, would explain why stores might have them late into the war, as the LR analysis suggests.

I'll add that Meigs' FY 61-62 report, in pp. 75-77 of the WD Letter mentioned above, states that he had a variety of nonstandard material on hand from procurements at the very beginning of the war, and was keeping them in stock for gratuitous issues to hospital patients, paroled US POWs, rebel prisoners, and "negroes employed in the army."

[sf46]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Ok, so what I am surmising from the photos, (& someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but on an individual basis, wearing of dark blue pants would not be incorrect for an impression of any time during the war. With that said, on a unit basis, it would be incorrect for more than a few to be in dark blue for later war period impressions.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Hallo!

Moderator hat on...

Is my craft greater than my art here?

:) :)

"Ok, so what I am surmising from the photos, (& someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but on an individual basis, wearing of dark blue pants would not be incorrect for an impression of any time during the war. With that said, on a unit basis, it would be incorrect for more than a few to be in dark blue for later war period impressions."

Without trading my scapel for a hammer...

So what "Zouave militia" impressions should be wearing dark blue or sky blue infantry "pants" for any time during the War, or on a unit basis incorrect for more than a few to be wearing dark blue infantry "pants" for later War impressions?

Since we have great references for Federal infantry trouser colors, I will not close this one. And I will explain why this thread is off the road in a ditch if I come back later with my hammer. (Hint: Why reenacting "Zouave" discussions are NUG discouraged on the AC Forum.)

;)

C'mon lads...

Curt

[briangauthier]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

As Curt said, why are we worrying about Zuaves here?

Wasn't the 11th Ellsworth's Fire Zuaves, aptly named because they were firemen and because their pants were, in fact, red? Just a thought...

[Sewing Vixen]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Red? No. The first issue was Grey/Blue. The second issue was regulation trousers...of the dark blue variety.

[PieBoy96]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

I see your dilemma with the blue pants. As for the 11th NY, a large group of us portrayed them for 145th Bull Run several years ago. Here is a ton of research done for the impression compiled by Marc Hermann and Shaun Grenan. Should at least give you additional information about what that particular unit was wearing around the time of 1st Bull Run, and yes, as stated they had dark blue Federal issue pants:

http://www.myrtle-avenue.com/firezou/impression.html

Also, I'm glad many of you found the Dark Blue Pants photographic compilation useful. If you ever come across DATED photos with Federals in dark blues, let me know! I am always adding new pictures to that article.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Yes, they had no red trousers...

There are period citations referring to the "red-pantaloon'd Fire Zouaves" at Bull Run, but these have proven to be referring to the 14th Brooklyn, which was in the same area of the field as the 11th NY and did, in fact, wear red trousers. They weren't even zouaves at all, but that's another thread.

[Sad Spaceman]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Please reread my original post if your wondering why we are discussing zouaves.
And yes, the Bull run uniform for the 11th New york is the uniform what I was refering too.
I guess a better question to ask, what would be the likelihood that another unit would copy their uniform as their own? It is the only zouave unit I am aware that could be described as having red shirts(not a jacket) and blue pants.
And if the dark blue issue trouser were the issue model in 1861 then I have a better model to use when reconstructing this other unit.

[FranklinGuardsNYSM]

Re: Federal issue trouser color:sky or navy

Look into period accounts of the 1st MN at Bull Run...