Two-Band Springfield

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Two-Band Springfield

Hallo!

Anyone has a right to disagree all they need to (as long as AC Forum rules are not violated).

Richmond Armory did not possess rifle making machinery.
All (universal so noted) of the "two band" rifle length arms made there were made with short RM barrels because it was RM machinery that they had.

Pick any surviving Richmond rifle. It will have the thinner barrel wall of the RM spec barrel, three groove RM rifling and twist, and the external RM barrel profile and taper.
The only variation lies in the pinched front sight similar to the Richmond .58 carbine which in itself is essentially a short RM made on RM machinery (or recyled from parts).

Pick any "expert" or reference- Anthony, Hill, Davies, Murphy, my late friend Madaus, etc.
Pick any public or private collection of Richmond arms.

A cat can have a litter in the oven, but it doesn't make them biscuits.

Period acccounts, even official documents, are annoyingly "loose" with proper typology or even terminolgy.
For example, the "1863" Confederate Ordnance Manual "prepared under the direction of Col. J. Gorgas of Ordnance, and approved by the Secretary of War" lists under the small arms approved for service:

"The rifle musket, model 1842."

"The Rifle, model 1842, reamed out to .58 inch."

Gorgas knew infinitely far more than I about CS ordnance. May be the type setter misset the "1" for a "2," or just deleted the "d" from rifled musket a few times.

Parlance, jargon, usage, on the one hand and formal, "official" (not that there was such a enforced or universal thing) typologies and classifications (period or modern) ultimately do NOT change the artifacts themselves. It just gives us a base reference point for both our understanding as well as our striving for hisotrical accuracy.
We can call a shortened (in terms of manfactured length or actual cut-down of a longer arm) a "rifle" because it has a rifled barrel. The actual weapon in time and the artifact pool remains what it is whether we call it a "rifle" or a "bazooka." The name and the name's use, officially or unofficially,
does not change the beast.
Our calling a Remington Model 1863 Muzzlelaoding Percussion Contract Rifle
a "Zouave Rifle" does not physically change what it was. Our calling a Remington Model 1863 Percussion Army Revolver ("New Model") an "M1858 Remington" does not physically change what it actually was.

"So, if your assertion is that Salmon Adams and James Burton did not in fact know that Anthony and Hill called what they made a "musketoon..."

Actually I would categorize that as a fact not an assertion. Adams and Burton were long dead before Anthony and Hill published there reference in 1978. They did not know what Anthony or Hill called their weapons.

Same for Sloan, Downer, or Jones.

Calling them cats or biscuits does not change what the arms were.

Whether Anthony and Hill called them "musketoons" in 1978 or Murphy and Madaus called them "armory rifles" or "short rifles" in 1996 does not change what the weapon was/is.

Yes, a "two bander" is a "rifle length" arm and is still a "rifle" because it has a rifled barrel. Recognizing that a "Richmond rifle" is a short rifle-musket because it was made using RM machinery and is not a "true" rifle with a different barrel thickness, profile, and rifling could be viewed as a "them and us" argument less than what the AC Forum strives for.

Anyone, and I repeat this to try to bring this back from the edge of anticipated farbery violation complaints-

Please post and share the historical and artifactual records that makes me and this history wrong.

Yes, whether a 33 inch barreled RM or a 33 inch barreled R, the arm is still a "rifle."
And a rifle-musket armed CW infantryman should not write in his letter about how he took up his rifle... But they did.

I am repeating myself here and am done.

Curt

[M.Latham]

Re: Two-Band Springfield

Herr Maestro,

I am curious to know at what point I said or disagreed that the rifle machinery was not taken to Fayetteville.

I maintain that the Master Armorer of the Richmond Armory, Salmon Adams reported to James Burton in August in 1864 that the Armory had begun to produce "rifles, short from old parts" and in September produced "rifles, new short".

Since the question asked was:

"Anyone know of any manufacturer making a reproduction two-band Springfield?
I've checked the usual gang of suspects (EOA, A-S, Taylors etc.) and came up blank.
'42,'55,'61,or '63 would be acceptable."

I feel that that answer I gave was perfectly acceptable, and strove to give the gentleman a historically accurate option, within the full spirit of cooperation the AC strives to maintain.

On a related note your observation:
For example, the "1863" Confederate Ordnance Manual "prepared under the direction of Col. J. Gorgas of Ordnance, and approved by the Secretary of War" lists under the small arms approved for service:

"The rifle musket, model 1842."

"The Rifle, model 1842, reamed out to .58 inch."

This is not a typographical error, as both in the Confederate ordnance manual and the 1862 Federal ordnance manual the Mississippi rifle is referred to as the "model 1842 rifle", and in the 1850 ordnance manual is simply referred to as the "percussion rifle". I suppose one could then argue that the "official" Government publications of the day were wrong in their terminology.

[ACo.]

Re: Two-Band Springfield

....................................

"The Rifle, model 1842, reamed out to .58 inch."

This is not a typographical error, as both in the Confederate ordnance manual and the 1862 Federal ordnance manual the Mississippi rifle is referred to as the "model 1842 rifle", and in the 1850 ordnance manual is simply referred to as the "percussion rifle". I suppose one could then argue that the "official" Government publications of the day were wrong in their terminology.

I noticed that years ago and feel that it is a simple typographical error, the Confederate manual is almost a line for line copy of the earlier Federal manual. In all other Federal documents it is properly called the Model 1841.