M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

I wouldn't be surprised if the 1st and 2nd USSS were responsible for some of the undeserved bad reputation of the Hall. They had a couple of hundred percussion Hall rifles for use on guard mount during their camp of instruction instead of their promised custom Sharps rifles. Then they nearly mutinied when they were issued full length Colt revolving rifles.

There was a reason they asserted that "USSS" stood for "Unfortunate Soldiers Sadly Sold", and unfortunately the Hall was a small part of that.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

Hallo!

My historical bias has always been that the Hall rifle and carbine "got a bad rep" as a result of some soldiers' experiences with them during the CW.
Largely because they were being issued old(er) and worn arms.
And once the bad reputation spread, it grew.

But I also believe that the design was "prone" to wear loose, and "loose" increased flash/gas/blowback leakage not only down to a shooter's arm but up and back in front of the shooter's face and eyes.

I have had two Hall's rifles, 1830's flintlock production with swapped 1841 percussion blocks-but felt (without actual trial) that the blocks seemed loose due to wear. Of course, there is no way to know whether that play was there in 1861, or additionally added by owners, collectors, and dealers working the action for all the years since.
(Fearing the "rep," can reduce the desire to fire an original and find out...)

I never had, or got to fire, a minty original to prove or disprove their reputation new versus old(er). I find it hard to believe that a lad like Hall would have made a defective product, or that the government would have accepted the design for rifles and carbines.
(However, in the arms scrambles of 1861-1862, anything deemed serviceable and fireable, or even not for home guard bridge or ford guarding militia to look serious... might have passed muster.)

When Berdan's Sharpsshooters were formed in 1861, and while Berdan was fighting about their function as well as their getting Sharps target rifles, they were issued Hall's rifles to guard their camp in Washington, D.C.

It is said that the "pop out" percussion breech block, being a neat self-contained unit, was removed by the dragoons and used as a single shot "pocket pistol."

Curt

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

Another thought:

I know a lot of guys who were issued 1911 and 1911a1 .45 Colts in Vietnam who told me that they were practically smoothbores by the time they got them, and weren't very accurate when they were needed. Considering how long the pistol had been in service by then and even with diligent work by the armorers there certainly could have been a few bad eggs, (and it seems guys I know got all of them.)

I suspect a very similar situation occurred with the Halls.

[fahnenschmied]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

I've shot a variety of the Halls carbines. The best was a much carried but not too worn "whale tail" lever that was as tight as such a design can be. But you have wear two ways - on the locking blocks, as well as the front of the block, which erodes from the hot gasses leaking out.
I've also shot one of the carbines bored out to .58 for Fremont's soldiers. This one looked almost brand new, but leaked very slightly - far less than the common revolver does - but especially in dim light it is frightening. It looks like there are fans of fire, at least 6 inches tall, sprouting out of the carbine for a moment. In daylight you don't notice it, and you can't really see it on the flint rifle for the smoke. But if that fan reaches your wrist, you will feel it.
A Halls in fine shape is a good gun, one that is a little worn is still tolerable if you know what to expect. I think I'd still rather have a slightly leaky one versus a muzzle loader if I were on horseback.
As to shooting the breech block as a pistol - I saw a fellow do that with a full charge - block leapt out of his hand and smote him in the forehead. They are hard to grip. I have done it once with a dram charge- @28 grains of powder - that was manageable.
Never owned one, just took advantage of offers to shoot others...
I can understand the prejudice against them - a Sharps is much better, really, but some soldiers got stuck with what they didn't want, and were going to call it "junk', even if it wasn't really so bad...

[NC5thCav]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

Speaking of Hall rifles for sale...

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(rnd1vyejaytqp23pdayssf55))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=12&subId=78&styleId=266&partNum=AAH-783

It's pricey, but looks pretty good.

[ACo.]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

That is a beauty but certainly should NOT be used for a reenactor's gun.

[Tim Prince]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

That is an attractive Hall rifle, more so since the gun appears to be missing the crack behind the breech at the top of the wrist that nearly all Hall's have. The crack usually is the result of improper disassembly. I will say that their price is a little high for the condition of the gun. Right now, with the economy a little on the soft side, a Hall in that condition is about a $2,250 retail gun. To push is much past $2,500 it needs to have 80%+ original brown. To put it in perspective, here is a really minty Hall converted to percussion for $3,250. http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/90...9convmint.html. The $500 difference in condition is pretty staggering. Even the $3,250 gun could probably be had for about $3K in the current market. I remember when a Hall conversion like this would bring $5K without blinking an eye......

[MustangGray]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

I hesitate to post but here it goes anyway!

I've seen guns from the Rifle Shoppe(had a Baker rifle for a while) and when they complete them they turn out a very nice and very authentic(from what I've seen) piece. I had an original M43 Hall carbine stamped 1852. It was missing several parts and had obviously seen much service, possibly in civilian hands. I purchased the missing parts from the Rifle Shoppe and they fit quite nicely. True there was some degree of finishing that needed to be done but as a whole,. I was satisfied. I fired the carbine quite a bit and it did spit fire but I learned to work around it and I never thought it was near as bad as it had been made out to be. Of course I've read Sam Chamberlain's Confessions of a Rogue and had to fire the breech block to see if it worked and I had no problems with a full charge with a ball seated on top... it's akward to grip but I never worried it would jump out of my hand. Someone mentioned the chip behind the breech being due to improper care of the weapon... I believe it to be a design flaw as nearly every Hall I've ever seen had the same chip and after restocking my carbine(the original stock had been cut down from its issued state) my stock chipped after a few rounds were fired through.

I sold the carbine, shouldn't have done that but it's a convoluded story. I still own an original Hall rifle stamped 1832 and have fired it a few times(fit is still good enough there's virtually no gas leak) as well but it's in such good shape I'm hesitant to use it much and it spends most of its time tucked away to be eventually passed on to my son. Just like the carbine, it has a chip of wood knocked loose behind the breech but aside from replacing the ramrod it's all original.

Anyway, that's my take on it, try the Rifle Shoppe but expect a long, loooooooong wait but they turn good products. Other's mileage my vary!:)

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

Hallo!

For the longest time, and the way I learned it, was that the chip in the tang mortise as well as often found cracked wrists were said to be caused by recoil damage (A problem later revisited with the Mike Yeck Smith carbines when he decided to delete the "recoil shield" and simply make that an integral part of the receiver).

IMHo, though, the chip damage is due to improperly removal of the barrel, which by levering it up puts pressure on the rear of the tang mortise and breaks off a piece of wood.
(If the gun is rotated barrel down and held horizontally, the barrel will fall out or fall out with a light tap to the stock with no problem.)

Curt

[1816flintlock]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

I purchased an original Hall Flintlock Rifle myself last winter. Got it for slightly under $2000. The stock is full of knicks and dings, along with a broken and repaired wrist. The stock is also chipped at the rear of the breechblock with the chip being glued back in place at some point in time. That being said, the bore and breechblock itself are close to mint.








Note the set screw on the trigger/sear to adjust the trigger pull.


I can see how the design would be prone to wear over time from either gas erosion or from the breechblock and locking lugs rubbing against each other. This one lock up pretty tight, I'm estimating a gap between the barrel and breechblock of about .004" using a set of feeler gauges.

I've fired this one a few times to satisfiy my curiosity using light loads of about 50 grains of powder vs the original charge of 90 grains if my memory is correct. Gas leakage was not bothersome but, it is one pain in the neck to clean with fouling being sprayed all inside the receiver section. Seems accurate enough though, at least at the short range I was testing it from.



Stephen

[guad42]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

Hallo!


It is said that the "pop out" percussion breech block, being a neat self-contained unit, was removed by the dragoons and used as a single shot "pocket pistol."

Curt

I have read this also. In one of the multiple versions of Samuel Chamberlain's "My Confession" (some versions published as "Recollections of a Rogue") Chamberlain either used, or witnessed someone else use, a Breech Block from a Hall as a pistol, to hold off an angry crowd in a Cantina during the Mexican War years. Chamberlain's stories are a joy to read, though probably most of them are his own fantasy. He also did his own color illustrations which accompany the text and these are entertaining as well, a mixture of real battles, run ins with folks like "Old Rough and Ready", and melodramatic love affairs with Senoritas.

Chamberlain served with the Dragoons during the war, and in his stories claims to have witnessed every major event. Later, he fell in with the Glanton Scalp Gang before returning East. He later served as a Union Officer in the Civil war.

I've heard of Halls, perhaps Carbines, being used by Hunter's Confederates in Arizona, in the battles at Picacho and Apache Pass. I imagine these were of the percussion variety, but I am not certain.

-Sam Dolan

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

Thanks for all the input. Today I put a down payment on a Hall conversion rifle, sold by Tim Prince http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/sh...&cat=13&page=1 . It is a really great weapon, and I cannot wait to see it in person. Thanks again for all the help.


All the best,

Andrew

[Union Navy]

Re: M1819 Breechloading Flintlock Hall Rifle

Just to wedge the Navy in here, flintlock Hall rifles were presented by M. C. Perry to Japanese dignitaries during activities there in the early 1850s. The Navy used percussion Hall carbines all through the pre-war period. Then-Commander D. G. Faragut said that Halls were "greatly preferred to the Jenks by most naval officers." In 1858 there were still 480 in the Navy inventory. Some were supplied to by the Union Defense Committee early in the war. Some were still at the New York Navy Yard in late 1862.