Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

[Andrew Kasmar]

Does anyone happen to have photos or detailed descriptions of Hall Rifle cartridges and arsenal packs. Any information would be great. Thanks


All the best,

Andrew

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

What year and model Hall? After 1830 the paper was nitre soaked so no more biting off and pouring was needed. But there was a variety of cartridges and labels depending on caliber which brings us back to the year. I may be able to get some information/pics to you as I know some Hall collectors.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

I would be looking for Second Production (1826-1838) 52 caliber Hall ammunition. Thanks


Andrew

[MustangGray]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

Mr. Whitley,

Can you elaborate on the use of nitre soaked cartridge papers? I've never heard of this practice and the elimination of biting/tearing cartridges at a distinct date such as you mention.

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

The combustable paper cartridge, or nitrated soaked cartridge, or whatever other name it may go by, is and was common. A websearch will give you much info, instructions, etc. Very common in revolvers and breechloaders using paper cartridges.

[MustangGray]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

Mr. Whitley,

Thank you, I will do some looking on my own however since you solidly stated the tearing of cartridges was discontinued after 1830 I was hoping you could offer some solid documentation on that practice. Maybe you were only referring to these cartridges being used in breechloading arms?

[floridawar]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

Howdy Andrew;

The Hall’s Rifle was not intended to utilize a paper cartridge in the period mentioned.
During 1827 contracts for Hall's Rifle accouterements included: "bayonet, ammunition flask, bullet mold, wiper, and screwdriver."

During the 1830s the Hall's riflemen were equipped with the combination "ammunition flask" which contained powder and charger on one side, and ball discharger on the other. Though these were intended to be replaced by the M1834 Riflemen’s accouterments [pouch, flask, waist belt] they continued to be delivered to the army up to 1837. By 1839 it was reported that the Hall flasks were poorly made and did not last long in the field. This may have led to testing paper cartridges for the arms; The tests at West Point in 1837, mention use of 8.4 grains weight of cartridge paper for the cartridge tested there. There is a good deal of data on this in R.T. Huntington's "Infantry Accouterments of the US Infantry, Riflemen, and DRagoons, 1834-1839" ... and Waverly Lewis’s “Small Arms and Ammunition in the US Service…

Regardless, the 1834 Ordnance Regs. mention Hall's Rifle used:
for "service charges": 100 grains powder, (priming included), and a ball weighing 32 to the lb.
for "salute or exercise" [blanks]: 73 grains powder.
In 1839, the Ordnance Manual specified for them: 100 grains, priming included.


The ball is given in 1837 and 1841 as being .525 inches in diameter.

By 1840 the Ord. Dept. was no longer making or procuring the Hall Rifle accouterments, but a newer pattern of universal of rifle accouterments (M1839; similar to the 1834 pattern).




Cheers.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

Thanks for the information. By the time of the Civil War, would Confederate soldiers be issue the combustable paper cartridge, or would they have been issued paper cartridges. Realizing that the ammunition in the arsenals would be used up first, after that I have a hard time believing that South produced "special" cartridges for these rifles, but I may be wrong.


All the best,


Andrew

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

Scott,
I was using that 1830 mark from S.E. Brown's book on Harpers Ferry guns since I was using it as reference on another post. When I looked back to his book, he has no footnote for the date. I didn't mean to imply that they were never used.

There are stories about Dragoons who were sorry they didn't have them at times. At one point in The Battle of San Pasqual, the Dragoons with Capt. Abraham Johnston were mounted and moving under darkness and found that fumbling with tearing and loading was to little use. They were noted using their Halls as clubs against the Californio Lancers.

Ref. The Florida Historical Quarterly, Vol. 61, No. 4 (Apr., 1983), pp. 445-458, in his article about the Second Seminole War, M.L. Brown has the following to say:

In 1831 the breech-loading flintlock M1819 (Hall) rifle used in the conflict employed combustible cartridges made by im- pregnating the paper wrapper with a potassium nitrate (salt- peter)-water solution. When dried the paper was highly flammable and ensured positive combustion of the powder charge and the wrapper. Hall percussion-ignition carbines also used the combustible cartridge. All Hall cartridges were tied with a distinctive red-and-white braided twine to distinguish them from the cartridges used in muzzle-loading firearms. All shipping wrappers for military muzzle-loading cartridges were "sized" (waterproofed) with a varnish made of beeswax, turpentine, and linseed oil.

Thank you James for the info.
Andrew, the paper was really nothing too special though you are correct to question if these were continued to be made for Halls during the war, which I do not know.

[floridawar]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

Howdy gang,

The combustible cartridge paper may have been around in the 1830s, but I have’nt seen any evidence of its universal use as Brown's article suggests. Brown does not give a source for the statements either. I must say that his claim that "all" Hall's cartridges were tied with red and white string is erroneous. There are Hall's cartridges extant with generic off white string... Regardless, the manuals of arms for these guns might provide some answers to the cartridge question.
The Hall rifleman’s accouterments made no provision for the carriage of cartridges during that period. Schmidt’s book on “Hall’s Breechloading Firearms” gives the 1826 manual for the rifle, and it includes the command, “handle flasks” rather than handle cartridge, etc. The percussion carbines were loaded by paper cartridges (and the Dragoons carried a cartridge box for them). The manual of the Hall Carbine from Poinsett's Cavalry Tactics of 1841 had the soldier tear the cartridge with his teeth and load by pouring the powder in the receiver, and pushing in the ball and paper with his little finger, then priming with a cap.
I assume that with percussion conversion rifles, the manual of arms and loading would have to have been similar to that of the percussion carbines as given in the dismounted section of the cavalry manual of 1841.
This manual can be found through this thread:
http://http://www.authentic-campaign...hlight=ruegger

Cheers,

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges

The following is not intended to advertise anything for sale, but is intended for use as reference to dimensions pertaining to the topic at hand.

Andrew,
Complete entry can be found at The Horse Soldier.com

HALL CARBINE CARTRIDGE PACKET

Unopened packet of Hall cartridges in manila packet, tied by string, accompanied by an x-ray of said packet which verifies the presence of ten .58 caliber cartridges within. Package measures 2.25" x 3". Paper wrap and string in extremely fine condition.


These .58 caliber cartridges were manufactured for the 1833 Hall-North Breech-loading percussion carbine, seven thousand of which were produced between 1834-39. This carbine was still very much in use in U.S. Regular cavalry at the outset of the Civil War. And, unopened packets of Hall carbine cartridges from this period are extremely scarce. A superb collectible for cavalry aficionados, and Hall carbine owners in particular.

I might suggest you contact some well known firearms museums and ask them about variances of Hall cartridges, maybe even see if you can go and do a survey. There are a variety of types, some more uncommon or rare (at least today) than others, but they are out there to examine.

[Sut Lovingood]

Re: Breechloading Hall Rifle Cartridges



64 Cal. for 1836 Hall Carbine as commonly issued, believed these were used by Dragoons in Florida during Seminole War as well as other locations. The red and white string was well known for this type. I asked a couple people about the combustible paper Halls cartridge and after the holidays will hopefully have pics of one.
This one in the picture can be seen through McPheeters web site where description is available.