Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

[walton21]

I'm thinking on picking up a model 1816 conversion (repro) to use for both sides, I know that they were used in the civil war, but doing my own research I've only found a few that were issued to the confederate army early in the war, some being issued from Virginia. What I'm trying to look for is who used them in the Union army? I know that they were a second hand weapon, and that the second hand weapons were issued to the immigrants and some militias. all the research I can come up with is that many had .69 cal. which doesn't help on what type of model it is.
Is there any documentation to who used them in the union army?

[FortySixthInft]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

I did some research on this a few years ago and I didn't come up with much, but then again I didn't search that hard.

I have an original '16 conversion. It has a "NJ" stamped on the barrel so, although this isn't really proof of anything, it may be a lead.

Here's a photograph:

[Minieball577]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

While I cannot give you numbers off the top of my head, I can assure you that converted 1816 muskets were in service in the Union army. In fact there were a number of shops in Philadelphia, in excess of twenty, converting the older muskets into the configuration shown in the image of the previous post during the first year of the war. The most noted was Hewes and Phillips, which is the type of arms shown in the picture above. It should not be too difficult to find Union usage for said arms. Check with the usual sources, Robert Reilly, and the like.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Just surf the web for CW images and you will see many union soldiers with these type weapons.

[David Fox]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

The M.1816/22 was THE most common shoulder weapon to be found in state and federal arsenals when trepidacious officials cracked the doors in late 1860 and '61. With a production run of just shy of thirty years and something like 3/4 million cranked out, in flint (Confederate) and percussioned versions, smoothbore and rifled (Reb and Yank), they, with the later (and fewer) M.1835/40s and M.1842s served in myiad thousands until production and importation of more modern weapons first augmented them then supplanted them. Not all companies nor all regiments were issued M.1816s, but it was all but ubiquitious in both armies.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

David is right. Widely used by both sides and grossly under-represented at all kinds of Civil War events. When Grant took Vicksburg in July 1863 a third of his army was still armed with smoothbore muskets, many of them US 1816/22 as well as imported Belgian flintlock conversion muskets, which Grant described as "just as dangerous to the shooter as the target" or something like that. At Ft Donelson (TN) there is a US Model 1816/22 cone-in-barrel flintlock conversion on display in the Visitors Center identified to a Union soldier who used it at the battle for Dover, TN in Feb 1863. 500,000+ older US Model muskets were on hand in the various US Arsenals at the start of the war.

While both sides had many rifle-muskets by mid-1863, the Confederacy was still filling orders for buck and ball rounds (used in smoothbore muskets) when Lee surrendered at Appomattox. Point being, you are seldom out of place showing up at most events with a smoothbore musket. It's the US Model 1864s that guys bring to use at Stones River Battlefield Park (for a battle that began in late Dec 1862) that bother me most.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Hallo!

If you use the SEARCH feature, you should be able to reference the 1862 listing of such arms used in Ohio regiments ("Arming Ohio" thread).

"I'm thinking on picking up a model 1816 conversion (repro) to use for both sides, I know that they were used in the civil war, but doing my own research I've only found a few that were issued to the confederate army early in the war, some being issued from Virginia. What I'm trying to look for is who used them in the Union army?"

One limited source is ammunition requisitions. While they often do not differentiate between arms per se, if one sees entries for .69 Elongated Ball they are going to rifled or rifled and sighted M1822's or M1842's.

Just as an aside...

We are somewhat hampered and hindered by the lack of a decent M1822 flinlock or M1822 conversion to percussion.

The Italian offering is basically a modified repro "Charleville" that uses a rarer Colt contract style alteration bolster and a "civilian" type hammer more similar to those found on M1822's altered by local gunsmiths for the Confederates.

And yes as shared, especially for roughly the first half of the War plus, they are grossly "underrepresented" especially for 1861 and into 1862 events where
M1861 Springfields and even large numbers of P1853 Enfields incorrectly predominate.
(But then some lads are fond of using M1865 Spencer carbines in 1861 as well...)

Curt

[KPavia]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Since the M1816/22 has been mentioned, I figure I'd post this info. In "They Fought for the Union" by Francis Lord, he references the M1822 in a table of weapons issued to various New York regiments in 1861 and 1862. This table can be found on page. 141-

(First is the rifle, followed by its caliber, and then the last number is the number of regiments to whom it was issued. Sorry that my table is kind of ghetto looking.:D)

Long Enfield..........................577 ................................ 57
1842 Musket ........................69 ...................................31
French Vincennes
w/ sword bayonet .................69............................... ....11
US Rifle Musket......................58.................... ..............11
Austrian Rifle.........................58.................. .................4
Austrian Rifle.........................55.................. .................3
French Rifle Musket.................69......................... ..........3
Short Enfield
w/sword bayonet...................577..................... .............3
Remington Rifle
w/sword bayonet....................54..................... ..............3
1822 altered musket..............69.................................. 3
Prussian smoothbore musket......71................................2
French Liege rifle
w/sword bayonet...................58...................... ............1
Prussian altered musket................69.......................... ........1

I've attached a PDF file in case anybody wanted to save it to their computer for future reference.

[walton21]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Thank You everyone for all the information, This really helps me because I've been looking at pictures of early war union soldiers and they alot have a .69 cal just it's either I can't see the lock plate or the pic is not clear enough to tell if it's a conversion.

[markj]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Indiana troops definitely got them. The Indiana State Armorer's log book, maintained at the Indiana State Archives, establishes this fact. In May 1861, the 10th Indiana, to name one unit, is specifically stated as having been issued .69 muskets using "Maynards primers". Correct me if I'm wrong, but these could only have been M1816/22's converted by E. Remington & Son in the late 1850's.

You'd enjoy reviewing the Armorer's book. It provides a fascinating overview of Indiana arms receipts and deliveries for about the first two years of the war. What struck me was the frequently frantic pace of receipts and issues: arms received by rail on one day were immediately inventoried and then almost invariably issued to mustering regiments the next day. The State Armorer and his assistants must have been working 16-18 hours a day just to keep up--I wouldn't have wanted their job for all the tea in China.

You can also determine the ebb and flow of certain kinds of arms based on the armorer's log entries. Indiana did get a fairly sizeable shipment of Enfields (probably "short" Enfields) in June 1861 and the 13th Indiana got quite a few of them just before it deployed to Western Virginia in early July 1861 (these were quickly used to good effect at Rich Mountain). Shipments of Enfields then tapered off until sizeable numbers once again began to arrive that fall. The reorganized 10th Indiana, for its part, took receipt of its new Enfields in mid-November, only a couple of months before its first major engagement at Mill Springs KY. Furthermore, Hoosier regiments didn't start to receive European (e.g., "Prussian") arms in significant quantities until well into Fall 1861.

Interesting, huh? :wink_smil

Mark Jaeger

[CeeBeeRebel]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Remington Rifle
w/sword bayonet....................54..................... ..............3

On another note would this be a misnomer for the 1841 Rifle aka Mississippi Rifle?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Remington had a pre-war contract for .54 cal US 1841s, so in all probability yes.

[Jim Mayo]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

Since the M1816/22 has been mentioned, I figure I'd post this info. In "They Fought for the Union" by Francis Lord, he references the M1822 in a table of weapons issued to various New York regiments in 1861 and 1862. This table can be found on page. 141-

(First is the rifle, followed by its caliber, and then the last number is the number of regiments to whom it was issued. Sorry that my table is kind of ghetto looking.:D)

Long Enfield..........................577 ................................ 57
1842 Musket ........................69 ...................................31
French Vincennes
w/ sword bayonet .................69............................... ....11
US Rifle Musket......................58.................... ..............11
Austrian Rifle.........................58.................. .................4
Austrian Rifle.........................55.................. .................3
French Rifle Musket.................69......................... ..........3
Short Enfield
w/sword bayonet...................577..................... .............3
Remington Rifle
w/sword bayonet....................54..................... ..............3
1822 altered musket..............69.................................. 3
Prussian smoothbore musket......71................................2
French Liege rifle
w/sword bayonet...................58...................... ............1
Prussian altered musket................69.......................... ........1

I've attached a PDF file in case anybody wanted to save it to their computer for future reference.

Sit back and think about the verity of imported arms and their number reflected by the above information. Most people think about Confederates having a problem arming their troops. The above information shows that the Union was also in dire straights having huge problems obtaining arms to outfit the army. Some scholars now believe that the CS army was better armed than the US army for the first year and a half of the war due to the successes buying Enfields from England.

Certainly something to ponder for the early 150th events. Go and buy those imported arms which can still be bought at prices competitive with a defarbed Enfields.

[David Fox]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

The "better armed Cofederates" in the first 18 months of the war comes with a caveat: which Confederates, what theatre? A bit of reading about Rebel travail at, say, Pea Ridge in Arkansas, Mill Springs in Kentucky, or Fort Donelson in Tennessee (for example) demonstrate that the abysmal quality and inadequate quantity of small arms played a significant role in these Confederate disasters.

[Jimmayo]

Re: Model 1816 Conversions being used in the union

The "better armed Cofederates" in the first 18 months of the war comes with a caveat: which Confederates, what theatre? A bit of reading about Rebel travail at, say, Pea Ridge in Arkansas, Mill Springs in Kentucky, or Fort Donelson in Tennessee (for example) demonstrate that the abysmal quality and inadequate quantity of small arms played a significant role in these Confederate disasters.

And some of those inferior type arms can be bought at bargan prices.