Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

[KPavia]

Hello
I've been wanting to get my Enfield defarbed, and I've been wanting to get it defarbed to resemble why my ancestor carried in the 77th NY Infantry. So far in the research that I've done, I've only been able to find that they were issued "Enfields" in 1861 when the regiment was formed. My ancestor who enlisted in February 1862 and by the time the regiment was involved at Fredericksburg, it is recorded that all companies were still armed with Enfields. My question is- does anyone know, or can point me in the right direction, which specific importer/manufacturer, etc. would have outfitted the New York regiments?
Thanks for any help!

[BarryDusel]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Hi Ken,
I've found monthly Quartermaster / Ordinance returns very helpful. As to who was the actually exporter / importer it's out there. Ya just gotta dig.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

You can dig until you get to China and it would be extremely unlikely that you will find any records that specify which commercial P53 gun-maker, or even if the weapon was from England (Enfields were made in Belgium, the US, Germany, Spain, etc). Unless you have found a particular weapon that was identified to a particular soldier, and you copy that one...you can't extrapolate the information out beyond that. Even Ordnance returns do not specify as to the gun-maker, the most you will find is a generic reference like "...13 Enfields, 4 Austrian Rifles and 48 US muskets of the old style were returned" ...whatever that means, I interpret it as US 1816/22s, but it could mean 1842s as well.

There are some exceptions of course, like the very early LACo order filled for Massachusetts in 1861, but I do not know of anything similar for the NY regiments.

Here is another thing, even units who are recorded as being "issued Enfields" early in the war were found to have returned a variety of different arms to Ordnance as time went on. There appears to be a mixture of various rifle-muskets in the ranks, even in units that reportedly all received Enfields. Lacking a specific weapon to copy, I would approach the problem by de-farbing your weapon as something commonly found in the ranks, like a "TOWER" marked Birmingham gun with Federal inspector marks, maybe proof marked 24 on the barrel for .58 vs 25 for .577 as some Federal contracts specified .58 caliber.

[BarryDusel]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Hi Ken,
I've found monthly Quartermaster / Ordinance returns very helpful. As to who was the actually exporter / importer it's out there. Ya just gotta dig.

I should have been more exact with my answer. If there can be any such thing. As Mr. Barry already has said. There are many variables at play. I do believe just knowing that a particular unit had weapon X in a particular month is about where you'll get. In some cases I've found records of a particular importer/exporter dealing for a particular state. Even with those records revealed. It doesn't say to which Rgt's or Coy's there were ever issued. On the other hand. I've also reviewed quatermaster returns for numerous units throughout the conflict . Within 1 company I've got a notation for 35 x .58 Springfields, 4x .577 Enfields, and 3x .69 Springfields. That's at the end of a quarter.
Anyway, the fun is in the research. Have fun!!!

[MassVOL]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Kenny,
I can contribute the following to your quest.
Jacob R. Schuyler was dispatched by the state of New York to England to buy 25,000 rifles for the state. Upon arrival he bought every ready made rifle that he could get his hands on. His total net was 35,721 P1853 Enfields of various makers, and 4,071 P1856 rifles or derivativies during 1861 and 1862. 10,000 Enfilds were also sold to the US government by the state.
I would guess that the regiments from New York would have mixed makers depending on the volume from any particular source and their method of packing and distrobution.

[KPavia]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Hey everyone,
Thanks to all of you who have replied and offered me advice and direction. I'll definitely look into the quartermast returns and look into this Jacob Shuyler guy.
Thanks again you guys!
And yes, the fun IS in the research.

[DBURT]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Gents,
According to mine and Craig L Barry's research for our new booklet on JE Barnett & Sons "The Civil War Musket: JE Barnett & Sons"
It was a Union purchasing agent William McFarland who arranged to purchase all the Enfield production from the London commercial gun makers in mid 1861. Schuyler was the official US Govt procuring agent in Europe and failed to complete the contracts organised by McFarland. Confederate purchasing agent Major EC Anderson, with Samuel Isaacs (SIC&Co) help was able to secure all the Enfield muskets from these London commercial gun makers for the South for most of 1861-62.

Dave Burt
Co Author " Supplier to the Confederacy: S Isaac Campbell & Co. and Major Caleb Huse CSA"
"The Civil War Musket: JE Barnett & Sons"

[LibertyHallVols]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Within 1 company I've got a notation for 35 x .58 Springfields, 4x .577 Enfields, and 3x .69 Springfields. That's at the end of a quarter.

I believe it was sometime in 1863, on one requesition form, Company I, 4th VA requested 54, 58, and 69 caliber ammunition. While it is not clear what they were carrying, it is clear that a variety of weapons within a company was not unusual... though probably difficult to supply!

(I've always wondered about the .54's. Were they Mississippi's, Lorenz's... who knows!)

[KPavia]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Question- where can I go to check the quartermaster/ordnance returns? I've been looking over the National Archives site but its just too massive for me to find my way through.

[OlszowyTM]

Re: Question about Enfields issued to New York regiments

Kenny-

National Archives

Look for the microfilm series M1281 – the 86th’s records are on roll 5 to get you in the ball park.

And just to make the research project even more interesting, you will find the info you seek is not always in a nice little organized file. We found this info for the 86th NY, which was also in Casey’s Division (different Brigade-2d) at the same time the 77th was--

RG 393 Pt 2 Box 3 Dec61-Feb 62 Consolidated Morning Reports of Casey’s Provisional Brigade –

300 Enfield Rifled muskets, 530 Altered Flintlock “worthless”

Annotation of Dec 5 61 – 59 NY 2 flanking companies have Enfields remaining 8 companies have altered flintlocks

The following is a letter we found in a pension file at the National Archives

Jan 19 62
Washington Camp Good Hope
Dear Father and Mother
I now set down to let you know that I am well and hope these few lines will find you the same. It is awful windy down here now. It has been raining here for 2 or 3 days and the mud is knee deep. It is raining as fast as it can pour down here now yesterday. We went down to the arsenal to get some guns that was fit to use and when we got back we was mud from head to foot. We have got orders to march to morrow over into Virginia but it is to muddy that half of them wont stand it to get there. We have got some good guns now. They are the Enfield rifles they was in the 3 months service. We got our pay last Friday and so I shall send some home in this letter. I shall send home $18 dollars but I shant send it all at once. I shall send 5 dollars at a time. I should have sent 20 but I sent for a book and some paper and I owed the Captain and I bought a Jack knife. I shall send 5 dollars in this letter and I shall send it the same
Harpers Weekly. I want you should write and tell me whether Em got that book or not that I sent her. The pictures you will find in the papers that I send is Gen Macllen. He has been sick for quite a while but has got so he is out again. You must write and tell me how you are getting along this winter and what the folks are all about there but I must quit for I have got an awful headache today so give my love to all and accept the same yourself. Good bye this from your affectionate son Orlando Farnsworth
to his kind parents
Enclosed find 5 dollars
Direct the same as before
To George and Marcell
Dear Brothers I thought I would write a few lines to let you know that I have not forgotten you. I wish you could be out here to see how we live. You would have to laugh and wish you could be here to see the city and the Capitol. It covers a great deal of ground and is all made of marble. But I cant think of any thing more to write so good bye this from your kind brother Orlando Farnsworth to his brothers

This letter shows Uncle Sam was recycling firearms, so matching contract dates with mustering/issue dates may be problematic.

Other documents we have show the early issue to the 86th was Austrian rifles. We still don’t know for sure if the “altered” muskets of the Dec 61 report are the same as the Austrians or not. Newspaper reports (They’re always accurate right???) from Nov 61 indicate they received Enfields from the Elmira Depot, but the official reports don’t seem to bear this out. There is another account from a soldier re: an incident where they were called out on a false alarm shortly after arriving in DC (Dec 61) where ammo on hand in the company didn’t match the rifles and there was a lot of swapping being done on the fly.

After Jan 62, the Ord reports shows the 86th carrying Enfields almost exclusively until Jun 64 when a goodly number of Springfields show up. That is at the same time the 70th NY was rolled into the 86th. A review of the 70th records just prior to the consolidation shows them armed with Springfields so it is a good bet they brought them with them and the 86th did not get a “new” issue.

If you haven’t already touched base with NYS resources you might try:

State of New York Sites-
NYS Military Museum

http://www.dmna.state.ny.us/historic/reghist/civil/infantry/77thInf/77thInfMain.htm

New York State Library

http://www.nysl.nysed.gov/contact.htm

For a nominal fee you can obtain the microfiche records of the initial issues as well as a lot of correspondance re: contracts depot supply reports etc. etc. Ask for both QM & AG records as I found some ordnance related info in the AG files. I don’t recall if the 77th records were on them or not as the records for the 3 year units mustering in Sep-Dec 61 are sketchy. You’ll just have to dig.

As you can see, there is no “one” answer for the 86th and it’s a good bet the same story exists for the 77th. Good luck and happy hunting!