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A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

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  • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

    My Gr-Gr-grandfater was in Co. B, 7th TN Inf. and with input from Bob Parker, a local historian that is trying to write a history of that Reg't, I learned that that particular entire Reg't was originally issued .54" MS rifles probably from the State arsenal at Nashville. This uniformity of issue from the outset was uncommon if not down-right rare that early in the game for CS Reg'ts. By '63 however, the Reg't was requesting ammunition in .58" mixed in with the .54" and from what Bob told me he learned that after G'burg the Reg't was largely re-armed with 3-band .58s of various sorts. But, Pappy Gibbs was already out of action by then, wounded and partially if not mostly crippled at Cedar Mt. in 8/62, most likely by someone in the 10th Maine which was standing across from Archer's Brigade in the wheatfield in the 1/2 hr or so in which the 7th actually saw vicious fighting.

    I am hoping that the coordinators of the 150th events, LH and re-enactments, will wake up the cold-hard fact that there were more weapons in use than Enfields and Springfields. I plan to take along my MS rifle to some events, authorized or not. Once on the field, what are they going to do, stop the event because they might catch a glimpse of a 2-bander? It is not an issue at LHs so I certainly will show it off at some of those.

    BTW, Craig, check thy e-mail for an important querry.

    Comment


    • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

      I think the WIGs will have a whole company of Mississippi rifles at 1st Manassas and if so, I will consider
      it "mission accomplished" for my pipe dream of seeing this rifle in its right place on the battlefield of a major
      national event. Watts and I do mostly national park service historic weapons demos so it is no issue at all. Actually
      the 1841 works very well in that setting since you are ramming home the charge which is done in one push. Very
      handy for the different skirmish scenarios, too. Always attracts attention from the spectators, which after
      the demo allows for an opportunity to explain the role this rifle played historically.

      There are still a few Mississippi rifle reproductions floating around, pick one up now if you want one because
      Euroarms was the only maker currently providing a reproduction of that model and they recently sold out to Pedersoli.
      Presumably Pedersoli will continue to make this model available...for 50% more money than it costs now.
      I saw a 1970s vintage Bernadelli for $450 recently, and a comrade of mine found a Zoli for that same amount.
      Trust me, we are not going to be seeing these kind of prices again any time soon.

      And it appears Todd and I might be distracted for a while in 2011 righting another great wrong in our small way.
      Last edited by Craig L Barry; 03-08-2011, 11:39 AM.
      Craig L Barry
      Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
      Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
      Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
      Member, Company of Military Historians

      Comment


      • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

        Or wronging a right. (Banging head on my desk) BRi have given me all the Euro MS rifles they acquired in their last Euroarms purchase to be defarbbed. Backed me up a good 5-6 wks I think.

        Comment


        • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

          Originally posted by Todd Watts View Post
          Or wronging a right. (Banging head on my desk) BRi have given me all the Euro MS rifles they acquired in their last Euroarms purchase to be defarbbed. Backed me up a good 5-6 wks I think.
          Get one if you can possibly swing it. When/if they are available again it will be more for a lot more money than now.
          Stop banging your head and get those stock and barrel making machines made.
          Craig L Barry
          Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
          Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
          Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
          Member, Company of Military Historians

          Comment


          • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

            I don't know if anybody has mentioned this, but where is the bayonet lug?

            Taylor Kessen
            Taylor Kessen

            5th Ohio Light Artillery Battery and 29th OVI

            Then We shall give them the bayonet!- Jackson

            Comment


            • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

              Hallo!

              "I don't know if anybody has mentioned this, but where is the bayonet lug?"

              In brief and to over-generalize...

              The M1841 Rifle did not have a bayonet lug.

              The 1850's and early 1860's HF and contractor alterations to make them more "like" the M1855 Rifle NUG had an M1855 or M1855 type bayonet lug with guide rail on the right side of the barrel. (With exceptions such as the clamping ring, lathe turned down barrels, and the oddity with the grooves for the Snell bayonet. )

              Curt
              Curt Schmidt
              In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

              -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
              -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
              -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
              -Vastly Ignorant
              -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

              Comment


              • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                I fired a 41 for demos the whole summer when I interned at Harpers Ferry. It has been one of my favorites, a neat little rifle to shoot. I love the S,H, & G Enfield I picked up that Mr. Watts worked on. Maybe at some point I can express to my wife why I "need" a 41 as well. When you look at the 41 you have to remember the work they did with the Miss. Vols. in Mexico as well. A devastating wepon in good hands.
                Jake Koch
                The Debonair Society of Coffee Coolers, Brewers, and Debaters
                https://coffeecoolersmess.weebly.com/

                -Pvt. Max Doermann, 3x Great Uncle, Co. E, 66th New York Infantry. Died at Andersonville, Dec. 22, 1864.
                -Pvt. David Rousch, 4x Great Uncle, Co. A, 107th Ohio Infantry. Wounded and Captured at Gettysburg. Died at Andersonville, June 5, 1864.
                -Pvt. Carl Sievert, 3x Great Uncle, Co. H, 7th New York Infantry (Steuben Guard). Mortally Wounded at Malvern Hill.

                Comment


                • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                  "The M1841 Rifle did not have a bayonet lug."

                  Sorry about that, Herr Schmidt! That was just a fresh fish question. I'm just not very familiar with the Mississippi Rifle. I have never held one or seen one in person. For some reason, I thought that they were always made with the bayonet lugs. Oh well, learn something new every day!
                  Tkessen
                  Taylor Kessen

                  5th Ohio Light Artillery Battery and 29th OVI

                  Then We shall give them the bayonet!- Jackson

                  Comment


                  • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                    I am repeating myself I know, but one of the great things about the Mississippi rifle is the number of bayonet options, including
                    no bayonet and various rear sight combinations with the different re-bore and bayonet lug conversions. Harpers Ferry, Robbins
                    & Lawrence, Whitney, Remington and Tyler makers...You can really individualize your weapon to a degree that is not possible
                    with anything else.

                    And of course, nobody with eye sight will dispute the beauty of the US 1841 rifle. It is often considered the most aesthetically
                    pleasing martial arm of the mid-19th century. I saw Watts yesterday and congratulated him on restoring the US 1841 to
                    its rightful place in the pantheon of great defarbed repro weapons. I think it's official...I gave him an Oliva cigar.
                    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    Herr Kammeraden:

                    I am thinking of publishing the monograph we did together on the Mississippi Rifle for the on-hiatus "Wearing the Gray" project.
                    Probably print a dozen or so at Kinkos and sell them for whatever they cost. I have been asked for at least that many by guys
                    who bought Mississippi rifles, or have them now and would like to know more about the arm. Are you copacetic w/ that?
                    Last edited by Craig L Barry; 03-14-2011, 08:11 AM.
                    Craig L Barry
                    Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
                    Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
                    Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
                    Member, Company of Military Historians

                    Comment


                    • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                      Somehow the existence of this gem of a thread has escaped me until today. I have a nice MS defarb from Zimmerman in HF and want to put an appropriate sling on it. Was there a particular sling unique to the MS or was it the same as on Springfields and priors? If different, details on the hardware and color of the leather (oiled?), plus a purveyor of a sound reproduction would be most appreciated.
                      Ian Macoy
                      Blue Ridge, VA

                      Comment


                      • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                        Slings were issued by Ordnance, along with cartridge boxes and so on. These items were reordered
                        and replaced on a needs basis depending on the officers discretion. The US 1841 during the Civil War
                        would expectedly be found with whatever slings were issued in that particular army/theater of war.

                        The sling originally made for the US 1841 (1816, 1835/40 and 1842) was the pattern of 1839, 44"
                        russet leather, brass hook. See article in Journal of the Co of Military Historians (MC&H) Vol 54 # 2,
                        "Notes on the Gun Sling in the US Army 1800-1839" by Fred Gaede and S. Osman.
                        Last edited by Craig L Barry; 03-14-2011, 08:27 AM.
                        Craig L Barry
                        Editor, The Watchdog, a non-profit 501[c]3
                        Co-author (with David Burt) Suppliers to the Confederacy
                        Author, The Civil War Musket: A Handbook for Historical Accuracy
                        Member, Company of Military Historians

                        Comment


                        • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                          I want to add more props to Todd Watts, I sent my EA/NA M1841 lockplate to him to be stamped w/ his E Whitney stamps. I received it back w/in a week and the stamps are quite nice adding a nice touch to my "Colt Standard" M1841. The irony is that I sent it down to him on a Monday & I stumbled on an original that Weds. Irony of ironies both my repro & my original have identical lock markings. E Whitney 1852.

                          Mr Watts, thank you for splendid work.
                          Johan Steele aka Shane Christen C Co, 3rd MN VI
                          SUVCW Camp 48
                          American Legion Post 352
                          [url]http://civilwartalk.com[/url]

                          Comment


                          • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                            Hallo!

                            The Colt alteration contract?

                            Curt
                            Curt Schmidt
                            In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                            -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                            -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                            -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                            -Vastly Ignorant
                            -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                            Comment


                            • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                              Spline band for a saber bayonet & the Colt M1855 rear sight. I've seen them referenced as Colt Standard, Colt Alteration & Colt Conversion. I'm not exactly certain which is the most appropriate. Though I think Colt Alteration is probably the most correct period term.
                              Originally posted by Curt-Heinrich Schmidt View Post
                              Hallo!

                              The Colt alteration contract?

                              Curt
                              Johan Steele aka Shane Christen C Co, 3rd MN VI
                              SUVCW Camp 48
                              American Legion Post 352
                              [url]http://civilwartalk.com[/url]

                              Comment


                              • Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

                                Hallo!

                                I was just curious as to it being a Colt contract "alteration" (rather than a reader maybe thinking Colt made M1841's) not so much on the terminolgy.
                                (Colt himself wrote about "...necesary alteration to adapt them..."

                                Colt altered M!841's were done on existing M1841's as they arrived in varying batches over time from the inventories of several arsenals:

                                Eli Whitney made rifles from New York Arsenal (Governor's Island)
                                Robbins & Lawrence made rifles from Watetown Arsenal outside of Boston.
                                Harper's Ferry made rifles from Washington Arsenal.
                                E. Remington made rifles from Watervliet Arsenal.

                                In term of numbers, the most common:

                                1. Eli Whitney
                                2. Robbins & Lawrence
                                3. Harpers Ferry
                                4. Remingtons seem to have been brought in at the last minute to fill an order for Connecticut

                                I did a Colt/Whitney a few years ago for myself.

                                Curt
                                Curt Schmidt
                                In gleichem Schritt und Tritt, Curt Schmidt

                                -Hard and sharp as flint...secret, and self-contained, and solitary as an oyster.
                                -Haplogroup R1b M343 (Subclade R1b1a2 M269)
                                -Pointless Folksy Wisdom Mess, Oblio Lodge #1
                                -Vastly Ignorant
                                -Often incorrect, technically, historically, factually.

                                Comment

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