A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

Rich Cross makes/used to make a very fine repro-original Palmetto lockplate.

The larger problem, as with the M1841, lies with the lack of brass furntiture.

As the Italians do with their M1861 steel parts simply brass plating them to make them appear as brass, that is a more viable option than having a foundry run a batch of cast brass Palmetto musket or rifle furniture.

In history, the practice of plating is not unknown. For example, Colt offered "silver" backstraps on the revolvers that were just the regular brass parts silver plated. Or Rev War officer's gorgets were stamped copper that was gold plated.

Perhpas the larger problem is the thickness of the brass plate, as in reenacting cleaning and repeating cleaning, especially with abrasives, wears through the plating fairly quickly.
(I had a pair of Italian repro "Hawken" pistols, with what I learned was silver plated brass as after just two or three firings and gentle cleanings, there was enough abrasion in cleaning patches and wiping rags to wear off the very thin "silver" plate.)

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hey threepdr;

Are you the same Mark Hubbs that used to contribute material on leather accoutrements and whatnot to The Watchdog back in the day when there was such a thing? I thought you went Rev War last time we corresponded. Welcome back to the dark side.

[threepdr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Craig,

One and the same. I drifted to earler eras around 2000 or so after 30 years in the CW living history hobby. It took 30 years for me to get tired of it.

We did alot of the 225th Rev War events with the full scale 3 pounder the I built. Interest among my pards fell off after the 225th, plus we are very Rev War geographically challenged here in Alabama!

I've also done quite a bit of 1812 and Creek Indian War since 2000. With the Bicentineal of the War of 1812 coming soon I'll probably continue to do some Tennessee Militia.

Know anyone who needs a Full scale three pounder and limber? I happen to have one for sale!:)

Thanks

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

No, but I am making it my mission to get the US 1841 (Mississippi) Rifle back to its rightful place in the hobby, where it is accepted for its historical role in the conflict. This has not been as much of a problem on the history heavy side of the hobby when the particular battle scenarios support its usage.The National Park Service, at least STRI and Ft Donelson have no problems at all with the US 1841 in their NPS historic weapons demos. In fact, STRI has a Euroarms US 1841 Rifle among its owned weapons for their volunteers and staff. Many of their demos are skirmish drill, so it works out well given the way the rifle was used. I plan to use my Todd Watts de-farbed Zoli "Mississippi" out there at STRI quite a bit. Or that flintlock conversion musket if Watts ever gets it finished.

It is really only a problem where ignorance and superstition rule the roost. And speaking of that, the US 1841 is even starting to creep into more mainstream events where there are more experienced participants in leadership roles who realize that the rifle poses no safety risks with proper training.

Todd Watts should have three or four US 1841s ready by Spring 2010.

[Andrew Kasmar]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

If you do not mind me asking, what is the price for one of these Mississippis Rifles? Thanks


Andrew

[threepdr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

The actual reason M41s were dis-allowed from the ranks...

Back when I started in the hobby in 1972. There was only one repro musket availible, that was the Zouave. It had been around since the late 50s. The Mississippis were just coming on the market as were some very cheap indian made two band Enfields (about $69 out of Shotgun News!). The majority of military muskets in the ranks, other than zouaves, were origianals. (I saw a very nice M1855 broken at the wrist during an event in Tennesse in the 70s!)

As the hobby progressed and other repros like the Navy Arms M1863 and the Parker-Hale Enfields became availible, there was a push to eliminate the Zouaves from the ranks because of authenticity reasons. However, there were still were a lot of defenders of the Zouave who continued to claim that it was actually used during the War.

How did the progressive events/units fianally get around the whole used/not used in the War authenticity controversy? They baned ALL two band weapons for "safety reasons" because they were too short to be fired safely from the rear rank. The progressive movement was willing to sacrifice the M41s to get rid of the Zouaves. Later the mainstream events and units continued the ban because they fell for the precieved safety issue.

Since the Zouaves are no longer a threat, its time the M41s are given their due.

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

I don't know what the end price will be through Blockade Runner. I am charging them the same rate as I charge for Enfields at least in theory. My guess will be that they will be comparable with defarbbed Enfields. I have a ton of back-log work to crawl through before I can tackle the MS project - and have to figure some way to sneak ash from the wife to start getting stamps. She is not as dedicated to my defarb fettish as me. My backlog keeps piling up because someone handed me some mystery flintlock to convert to percussion which has turned into an evil project. It is close to completion though.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

"How did the progressive events/units fianally get around the whole used/not used in the War authenticity controversy? They baned ALL two band weapons for "safety reasons" because they were too short to be fired safely from the rear rank. The progressive movement was willing to sacrifice the M41s to get rid of the Zouaves. Later the mainstream events and units continued the ban because they fell for the precieved safety issue."

I must have missed those "progressive" units and the "progressive movement."

But, I guess I will make allowance for the lower case "p" in "progressive."

:)

Curt

[Jimmayo]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

No, but I am making it my mission to get the US 1841 (Mississippi) Rifle back to its rightful place in the hobby, where it is accepted for its historical role in the conflict.

Craig: Couldn't resist posting this bullet while the post was on use of M-1841s. Buddy of mine found it in Petersburg several years back. It was somewhat unusual and I always wondered what fired it. Last month I finally got off my posterior and started looking to see what muzzle loader had seven lands and grooves. It was a Mississippi! This bullet appears to have been fired from a .54 caliber but must not have wanted to be rammed since the nose of the bullet exhibits what appears to be ramming marks. Thought this may be of interest to some. By the way, it is sitting on my new Wambaugh blanket.

[Bill]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Question:

Was "steamed" walnut ever used for stocks on the various American military rifles/muskets?

[threepdr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

A progressive movement (with a upper case "P" or otherwise) is a realitive thing. In the late 70s the more progressive folks were just trying to wean people off converted Sears Gas Station uniforms and Zouave rifles and at least wear some kind of wool clothing.

There have been many progressive steps taken through the years. Each of them made the hobby better.

Heck, when I first came in the hobby there was only one company (Holt) who made repro leather gear and it was too expensive for most of us youngsters. My first cartridge box was a leather camera case. I had a Kodak Depot box. My buddy carried a Polaroid Arsenal box.:D

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Wow! A real Polaroid Arsenal box?! Hope it was at least de-farbbed!

When you say "steamed walnut" do you mean one that had been steamed to shape it? Modern shothun stocks are sometimes steamed and warped purposefully to fit a shooter, but I don't think think the stock makers back then would have done that.

Incidentally, on a previous post here or elsewhere I was mentioning that sap-wood is not commonly seen on originals. Well, I have a Nepalese right now that has a huge portion on the butt that is sap-wood. It is one of the poor-quality Enfields so maybe that was acceptable on these but not a BSAT or LAC - but who knows?

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Well of course, Todd, those junkers were made in Nepal for native troops. P53 stocks were sometimes set off, or warped as you put it. Did you ever read that copy of "The Civil War Musket" that you have or are you waiting for it to come out on audio cassette? Think US firing position (T) vs Euro firing position facing front to the foe. You find originals in exactly that modified stock configuration to accomodate the shooter's stance. Some funny stories exist about naive collectors wanting to return a recently purchased original P53 to the seller because the stock wasn't "straight." Is that what Bill Cross means by steamed walnut? Sounds more like a tasty supplement to the rations, doesn't it?

Herr Kammeraden and Hubbsy, you two old geezers ought to give up with the "progressive" with or without a capital "P." Our hobby moved past meaningless labels for people now-a-days and we only label events, not reenactors. I know because I read it in The Watchdog column in Civil War News, so it must be true. It is under The Watchdog tab on the CWN website. I also remember reading about "the Texaco Ranger" impression in the good old days and the insult was "What gas station are you Sergeant of..." I think it was in Ross Kimmel's recollections of the Centennial events. Who was the original hardcore guy? George Gorman? Kind of a grifter? Everybody used either used original stuff or else dressed in Sears work boots and carried a Zouave rifle. Hubbs is on point there from what I have read.

And the Zouave rifle, or Remington 1863 contract rifle, never saw one minute of service in the US Civil War on either side. I am on a mission is to de-stigmatize the US 1841 percussion rifle, which is one of the most beautiful arms to ever see service, and get as many good Zoli and Bernadelli 1841s rounded up and defarbed, then get them sold and out in the ranks. Watts and I will be out at STRI with ours whenever the scenario permits it...probably more than half the time. One point of interest if you have never handled a Mississippi, they are heavy--around 9.25 lbs--or about the same as a US 1842, but they balance great and load fast, I like the one single motion ramming instead of tamping the paper home in stages. The US 1841 rifle is just an excellent skirmish weapon.

If you want one of these 1841s move fast on them when they become available because the Zolis and Bernies are getting hard to find, like the early Parker Hale Enfields. First come first served, finding those in the future is going to be hit or miss. The Euroarms version isn't too bad, it just isn't as good as those other makers, particularly the lock function. It's workable into something decent and the Euroarms comes in both .54 and .58...in case you just have to have yours in .54. IIRC, Todd Watts ancestor that fought for the Confederacy in TN during the Civil War carried a Mississippi in .54 caliber, so Todd is all moony about having his in .54. And the reason my smoothbore conversion is taking so long is so we can get the bugs out before Todd starts offering that particular under represented weapon to his ouerve of historically accurate reproduction muskets. This is going to be an exciting year for those of us who like something more unique than the garden variety Enfield shootin' irons.

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

No, the reason your cone-in-barrel gun is taking so long is that it is cursed and had a previous-to-you owner that was drill-happy. Honestly, TWO vents for a flintlock?! And a vent hole drilled half-way across and deep along the breechface!?

I'll post an interesting observation I have come across last night with a Nepalese gun for those wanting a new arguement. The Nepalese Enfield I am working on was caked in 100+ year old grime and old linseed. As I scraped, rasped and sanded it away I discovered ancient hard epoxy in some gouges on it. It is solid very dark brown color and seems to be the consistency of our modern Acra-Glass. These spots were under all of the ancient grime coating so this was not done before selling recently and must have been done before the gun was stuck in that Nepalese palace where these guns are coming from. Anyone have any idea what epoxy would have been available to gunsmiths in the 1860s?

[David Fox]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Doesn't anyone manufacture semi- finished or finished American black walnut replacement stocks for the Mississippi? I'm at work so don't have access to their catalogue, but it seems to me S&S once carried something like.