A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

[M.Latham]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd,

Or you could buy the "The Eagle on U. S. Firearms" John W. Jordan.

It has all you would ever need to know and pictures to illustrate.

Cheers,

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Ha! Herr Kammeraden is correct on the eagle. I have something sitting around unpublished on this, but apparently others have noted it well before me. The stylistic US eagle is based on heraldic designs, but also evolved in detail through the generations of US martial firearms. The eagle looking adroit v. agauche (on yer right v. on yer left) is a heraldic meaning which would be understood as "war" or "peace." There is more to it than you would think. I noted in The Civil War Musket (out of print) that the Miroku US 1861 kit had an eagle on the lock that looked most like the Bridesburg Armory contractor version, and my theory was that they copied a Bridesburg for their kit. Who knows? A close look at contractor-made US 1861s shows more than a few distinct variations. Of course, Harpers Ferry and Springfield were a little different, too. Is it any wonder? Look at the 1842 muskets they both produced which were made to "interchange parts." Same is true of the 1861s made a variety of places. Most interchange some parts, but very few interchange all parts without some minor fitting.

As far as what variant this particular US 1841 defarb is trying to represent, we had most of the parts to do the so-called "National Armory" modification, 8800 of which were rebored to .58, tulip head rammer and long range ladder rear sight added. The bayonet lugs were often added but were of several types. As I understood it the original being copied lacked a bayonet lug so it was not added to this one.

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Whew! I will try to find that book and look into it some. Never knew there was such a book but then there are books for just about anything and everything somewhere. Considering an eagle stamp made to stamp case-hardened locks is going to run me $300-$500 depending on size, I am going to need to get 1 that will be "acceptable" for most anything from re-marking 1816s, to 1841s, and '42s adn '61s as well. I have nearly $2000 in my Enfield stamps currently and to open up the MS rifle line is going to cost me about $1000 I think. Takes several jobs to re-coup that initial cost and Da Wif is going to be screaching at me as I do it.

I'd sort of like Craig to publish his Eagle article, but then again keeping the public ignorant on this would allow me to get away with wrong eagles longer.;)

One thing we learned about the ones with bayonet lugs added was it also required a shorter front barrel band which also requires the stock be shortened about 1", and the retainer moved back as well. Then, to get the band off you have to turn it 1/2 way, move it over the lug, move it another 1/2 way around to slide it over the front sight, and sometimes do encantations to get it back on. It is about the coolest looking CW small arm I have ever seen when you get a properly-done long-range version MS rifle with saber bayonet attached. The one I did for MSLaird got me fascinated with this version.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

Yes, I find the "short nose cap" long range rear sighted variations of the altered M1841's to be the "nicest."

(The Period intent to bring the old M1841 up to "par" with the M1855 Rifle.)

Curt
Who Once Upon a Time, circa 1998, was going to go into the business and bought several thousand dollars worth of Springfield and Enfield stamps, and did not go into buisness Mess.

[ACo.]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd,

Or you could buy the "The Eagle on U. S. Firearms" John W. Jordan.

It has all you would ever need to know and pictures to illustrate.

Cheers,

Bingo to Mark Latham. :) Track of the Wolf has this book, new, for $15.95:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/%28S%281daq3in0ia2rel45atnchj3v%29%29/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=4&subId=24&styleId=71&partNum=BOOK-EUSF

It is also available via on line search at abebooks and I am sure, at Amazon. It is a good start.

[David Fox]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Well deserved kudos on the Mississippi. I've always wanted to own an original, but never have. Too little money chasing too much price. In 1973 Fayetteville, N.C., Louis Sanchez's gunshop had one w/ ALL the modifications one could hang on a Mississippi including a shortened front band w/ sabre bayonet stud and a species of long range rear sight. As I recall the asking price was $275. Too rich for me! Query: the wood on this replica appears to be some European type, very like that found on Lorenzes. Would it not be possible and desirable to disguise it in some very, very dark almost black finish?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

"Would it not be possible and desirable to disguise it in some very, very dark almost black finish?"

IMHO, no.

The very dark and/or black finish found on originals is the result of age-related blackening of the oil ("oil-varnish") of the stocks having turned black over time and environment (as to oil paintings).

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

This is a good observation on the gunstock and a good point for discussion because according to Watts the stock on this (and other repro) Zolis has next to no grain. He says he had to stain it to get any color to the wood at all. Very interesting...wondering what the Zolis were stocked with? Presumably the same European wood that the Italian Springfields and Enfields get, but maybe not...

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

I just picked up the Eagle book used on Amazon.com for $8. Should be a nice addition to my stack of dusty manuals. The Zolis I have looked at are what I'd call sap wood with no grain figure. It seems to be a solid wood with fairly tight even grain, but there is just no pigment. To get a desireable tone I am going to have to fake grain with walnut or similar stain before oiling. The very dark coloration on today's originals are froom many oilings, sweat, dirt, skin oils, weather and aging. These guns at one time looked like they do when I de-farb them and apply a couple of hand-rubs of linseed followed by waxing. I do not see much of the light sap-wood on originals though. I think that they must have been more particular about finding good core wood back then and tossed the sap-wood to the fire pit or used it for something else like tool handles. But trees today are not commonly found large enough to get many stocks out of core wood without getting the sap-wood as well and it'd cost more to get that type of core wood, so the Italians don't bother denying sap-wood. Instead they hide the stuff with heavy stains and polyurethane.

[Johan Steele]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Beautiful work, it's sad to realize that even the M1841, one of the best out of the box Italians... ok least worst; still needs as much work as it does to fix it. My own is a EA converted to the Colt standard that shoots so well I'm almost afraid to get it defarbed & the stock slimmed. Though getting a correct set of stamps on the lockplate would be nice. Are you just doing Harpers Ferry or do you plan to offer more lock stamps? Once my finances clear one of these days I wouldn't mind a Robbins & Lawrence.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

In brief and to over generalize...

For decades the Italians have gotten away with basically using unfigured "sapwood" from cheaper boules (think slabwood cuts) with the better grained "heartwood" woods going into flitches for veneer and finer furniture and gunstock purposes.
They had also used beech often with its specle grained look.
What they were able to do was basically "paint" it brown and then seal in to dull or semi-gloss polyurethane varnish.

One of the instances where reenactor voices/complaints were heard in Italy was that process, and resulted in some of the Italians using "deeper" sapwood that sometimes contains visible "grain" and even a little figure once in a while and oiling it rather than sealing beneath liquid shpe polish type finishes and plastic.
(That has made using beech rarer on guns made after the 1990's or so).

Still being brief and over-generalized...

The walnut they talk about is "European Walnut" (Jurglans regia). The problem, IMHO, is that Jurglans regia is also known and named for its country of original even though it is the same tree or wood.
So, because it grows all over the place, the same wood can be English Walnut, French Walnut, Italian Walnut, Circassian Walut, Carpathian Walnut, Greek Walnut, Turkish Walnut, Asian Walnut, etc.
And is sold according to use and price from the lower sapwood sides of boules, to sapwood/heartwood ranged flitches, to heartwood figured, to heartwood burl.

Curt

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

In their defense, it is not just the Italians that have done this sort of cost-cutting forr gunstock wood. If you look at our older American guns, they typically used food figure American Walnut for standard purposes rifles and shotguns. But, to get these stocks, the trunks had to be quarter-sawn lengthwise. A walnut trunk that is about 3' diameter can yield only about 5-6 blanks this way, and these may still hit sap wood at the toe. When gun makers buy trees for stocks, they have to consider the costs of the trunk vs the profits they can get for the stocks including labor. As our bigger walnuts were cut down they moved to lesser and lesser quality of walnut, staining the wood walnut to mask sap-wood and in the case of Winchester after about 1990, actually painting figure on the wood before then oiling it. Then they moved to beech, birch and maple stocks, applying walnut stains to these to mask the true color of the wood. For an idea of what good walnut costs, I have a blank of grade 2 Clairo Walnut for a modern shotgun buttstock and forearm that hasa fantastic figure in it. Only cost me $300 for the 2 pieces. Now to find somethin to do with it.

[threepdr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd,

You did an amazing job individually hand stamping that lock. I have not reenacted in several years but recently went to the "dark side" and have been shooting with the NSSA. Lots of fun if you only squint your eyes when looking at the average uniform. I picked up a used Bernadelli that I'm in the process of de-farbing.

The issue of eagles came up. To do a proper M41 plate the eagle has to be rather small and moved closer the hammer. The reason is the protruding mainspring screw that is located off the bottom angle of the bolster. It would come through the plate about where the right wing of your eagle is now. None of the repros use a mainspring screw, so they move the eagle over to center it on the plate. Maybe a fake screw protruding in that area would be in order to properly de-farb a M41 plate.

Were you reproducing any specific conversion contract? The reason I ask is that there were no Federal .58 conversions that used the M55 rear sight and the standard long front band. All of those type conversions (4 or 5 contractors did the conversions) used the newly designed short front band.

I'm thrilled you are taking on M41s. It is a long time coming and I hope more folks will considier carrying them in the ranks.

Mark Hubbs

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Good idea on the screw, Mark. I'll do some studying up on the little things like that before going headlong into the MS project. I have tentatively decided to start with Whitney contract versions because the stamps cost won't be too bad up front. I'll add more stamps after that. I have been toying with doing Palmetto version '42s as well and had a request for 1 yesterday but that is also down the road since I am not certain how manyof those I'd have calls for to justify the stamps cost and brass bands cost on that model. Jerry at the Blockade Runner was thinking of having factory '42 bands brass-plated for this purpose. While not as good a solid brass, it'd be much cheaper than having solid brass bands cast, fitted, and polished. The cost of brass is through the roof these days.

[threepdr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd,

Would there be a market for converting M42 to Palmettos since there is a repop already out? Also on the bands...they are more than just brass versions of the standard M42 bands. The pics I have seen show that they are non-stepped bands, like those used on the M41 instead of stepped bands on a M42.

Someone correct me if I am wrong on this.