A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

Yes, a number of stock makers offered repro-original M1841 ABW stocks (varying from 60% to 90% pre carved).

I have lost track of who is still in business, and at times it seems the same "dupli-carver" pantograph machines get sold and later put back into business under other business or owner names).

Dunlap stocks still offers one.

Curt

[emartinez]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Where would I get one of these fine rifles?! The Lieutenant says we don't have enough Mississippi's in our cavalry unit, so I was gonna get a Zoli and try to defarb without screwing it up, but this is SOOO much better than I will EVER do!

So, Mr. Watts, be thar more whar that'un come frum?

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

emartinez, I see you are in the 7th TN Cav. Is this the one based in Middle TN? Several of those guys shop at the Blockade Runner and if you'll keep you eyes on there a couple of MS rifles will show up in the spring.

I have a copy-carver device under construction and hope and pray it will allow me to turn these out close enough to be cost effective. Just have to get a supply of seasoned walnut.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

"I have a copy-carver device under construction and hope and pray it will allow me to turn these out close enough to be cost effective."

It should be.
In my experience, it might take some "engineering" and "tinkering" to get it set up and working as it should. Two friends each thought they could get away with a "cheaper" one to be commercially cost-effective but found it did not work very well. So, they had to engineer and add a number of things to get it up to snuff.

The one, though, I think, initially shot himself in the foot believing that the dupli-carver would chunk out a 99% ready-to-go stock and pushing it too far to avoid more traditional hand inletting work (until he realized that.)

They are "fun" to watch.

(But his fireplace was not aesthetic to watch, as he always had a ton of odd shaped bits and scraps of black walnut to burn...)

;)

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Ernie

To be sure you get one of the upcoming 1841 rifles this Spring, call BRI when you get a minute and have them set aside one of the Antonio Zoli 1841s and specify what you want done to it, what maker marks, etc. Then it will get done the way you want it done. If you wait until they are up on the website, it will be whatever version Todd decides to do. Several of the Zolis and at least one of the Bernies have never been fired. 30 yrs old, but just like the day they left the factory. And they are very solidly made firearms. Real beauties. Mine was a proto-type which has been around the horn a few times, and was a bit salty looking but when Todd got done with it...well you can see the pics. I can't even imagine how some of those untouched weapons are going to look works his will upon them.

The Campaign for the De-stigmatization of the US 1841 "Mississippi" (CD-41M) is officially launched. Although not yet in full vigor, these will be ready in the coming months.

Presumably, the smoothbore conversion project will be easier or harder to do depending on the flintlock you start out with. Mine was an oddball piece to be sure. We think it was one of those Rifle Shoppe US 1812 kits. It does not quite meet the textbook description of anything, but it has potential though. BRI is setting up an account with D. Pedersoli which makes the best repro rock locks to begin with. Like I said, you start out with a better musket and you end up with a better de-farbed musket.

[Bill]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

When you say "steamed walnut" do you mean one that had been steamed to shape it? Modern shothun stocks are sometimes steamed and warped purposefully to fit a shooter, but I don't think think the stock makers back then would have done that.

Incidentally, on a previous post here or elsewhere I was mentioning that sap-wood is not commonly seen on originals.

Todd,

Now days, it's standard procedure to steam walnut to equalize the color between the heart and sap wood. (Stack it up, put saw dust between the layers and force steam through the walnut. The more porous sap wood sucks up the darker color.) After it's steamed it gets dried.

The lack of obvious sapwood on military weapons is why I asked the question.

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

OK, I know what you are talking about now. I have never seen it done but heard about it. It doesn't dye the sap wood very deep I would think because I get a lot of modern stocks with a dark stain which may be this method, but it is right on the surface pores. Heartwood has pigment all the way through and no matter how long you carve or sand on it the color remains. The dyes sapwood loses the pigmentation immediately as you start scraping or sanding.

This Nepalese had a very dark color but it was not from dye. It was coated in 140+ years of oil and grime.

[rlhardingjr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd, Craig, et al.

Like you all - the M1841 rifle has a special place in my heart as well. All this M1841 "de-farb" talk has peeked my interest and had me going into my "armory" just to see what I have and what can be done with them. I have two, one a Zoli I bought many many years ago. The other is a Replica Arms (V. Bernardelli Gardone V.T.) which I picked up several years ago for a song in "like new" condition. The gentleman said he shot less than 50-rounds through of it. First question concerns the Replica Arms "version" and its origins. It seems to me that RA had something to do with Val Forgett, Jr. either as the forerunner to Navy Arms or visa-versa. Also, there is a noticable dimensional (overall length) difference between the Zoli and the RA. In either case, I plan to have both "de-farbed" at some point down the road, so Todd you have time yet...

Based on what I have here, what versions would best suit any particular rifle? I would be interested, however, in having one rebuilt with a turned-down muzzle for a socket bayonet. I saw an original some twenty years ago in a gun shop in Jackson, MS. The conversion to M55 socket bayonet was rough (and drastic) to say the least, which led me to believe it may have very well been "southern" in nature. My preference would be to have the muzzle turned down for the M1835 bayonet with a socket bore of .844" and the rifle finished out as a "Tyron M1841" as referenced in Robert M. Reilly's book, "American Socket Bayonets and Scabbards" on page 58, or as any other contractor as may be plausable. Your thoughts welcomed.

[David Fox]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

I believe most M.41s turned at the muzzle for socket bayonets took a special long-bladed bayonet pursuant to a state contract. These bayonets were either made here or in England, the story goes. I've always presumed the bayonets were manufactured at Harper's Ferry because the example I have is a snap-fit on my 1864-manufactured Fayetteville rifle and is almost identical to the somewhat cruder Southern bayonet made for that type-three rifle at Fayetteville (see: pg. 79 of Reilly's "American Socket Bayonets and Scabbards"). It seems logical the Southern-made Fayetteville socket bayonet was made on some of the HF tooling captured by Jackson in April, '61.
In the odd-rifle-and-bayonet marriage subject, I've long owned a "Nullification Rifle", ordered by South Carolina in the 1830s or '40s from Tryon of New York. It's a German silver mounted sporting half stock civilian piece militarized for the Palmetto State. An iron ramrod is substituted for wood, sling swivels are added, and the muzzle turned round for an M.1816 bayonet. The result is rather like a Cub Scout loaded-down w/ an M60 machine gun. 1861 S.C. camp scenes closely examined show its issue early in The War.

[Mississippian]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

David,

Do you know how many of these SC rifles were made? It's of great interest to me as my family were very involved in the SC militia and politics in the 1830's and 40's. Might make for a very nice 1850's militia impression.

Will MacDonald

[Jimmayo]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd, Craig, et al.


Based on what I have here, what versions would best suit any particular rifle? I would be interested, however, in having one rebuilt with a turned-down muzzle for a socket bayonet. I saw an original some twenty years ago in a gun shop in Jackson, MS. The conversion to M55 socket bayonet was rough (and drastic) to say the least, which led me to believe it may have very well been "southern" in nature. My preference would be to have the muzzle turned down for the M1835 bayonet with a socket bore of .844" and the rifle finished out as a "Tyron M1841" as referenced in Robert M. Reilly's book, "American Socket Bayonets and Scabbards" on page 58, or as any other contractor as may be plausable. Your thoughts welcomed.

If memory serves me correct and without looking it up, the turned down barrels were a NY contract and used the M-42 bayonets. There was also the DRAKE conversion which included provisions for a socket bayonet which is harder to come by. Some 41s identified to Mass soldiers used the Drake conversions.

I included a picture of the turned down barrel M-41 FYI.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

Yes, in 1862 Massachusetts contracted with Augustine Drake of Boston to alter their Windsor M1841's.
Basically, Drake replaced the front sight with a musket sight, and the rear sight with a three leaf short range sight. History not exactly clear on his socket bayonet which may have been a European (possibly Englsih) contract.
By December 31, 1862 there were 1742 on hand, with some being issued in 1862 to at least three MASS regiments.

The bayonet is similar to some associated with Sharps NM1849 and NM1863 Rifles and oddly enough some Fayetteville bayonets- they being knda/sorta/mostly "M1855ish" socket bayonets with just a slightly larger socket.

The lathe turned muzzle version NUG took the .69 M1842 socket type bayonet.

Curt

[rlhardingjr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Jim..,

Thanks for the photo and your input. Can you tell me who produced that particular rifle in the photo?

Also - I would reason that once these rifles were received and issued into US general service, the system would have eventually become a general mix of makers. Is there any indication out there that the arsenals and armories carrying inventories of the M1841 rifles were likely a mixed bag of makers, or was this not a detail of note in official ordnance returns?

As for conversion contracts, do any of you know if any of the contractors made it a practice to re-stamped the lockplates, barrels etc. with their identifying marks? Would I be too far off the mark to reason (I try not to use the word "assume") that given a certain type of conversion contract, be it rebore, long-range rear sights, bayonet lugs or turned down barrels, etc., the contractor might well have received any given mixed lot of rifles manufactured by either government armory or any number of contractor produced rifles?

I will let this all "soak" for now, but I can already see that this thread is well on its way to rivel the "Enfield De-farb". But isn't this what we are all really about anyhow?

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

"Also - I would reason that once these rifles were received and issued into US general service, the system would have eventually become a general mix of makers. Is there any indication out there that the arsenals and armories carrying inventories of the M1841 rifles were likely a mixed bag of makers, or was this not a detail of note in official ordnance returns?

As for conversion contracts, do any of you know if any of the contractors made it a practice to re-stamped the lockplates, barrels etc. with their identifying marks? Would I be too far off the mark to reason (I try not to use the word "assume") that given a certain type of conversion contract, be it rebore, long-range rear sights, bayonet lugs or turned down barrels, etc., the contractor might well have received any given mixed lot of rifles manufactured by either government armory or any number of contractor produced rifles?"

Yes, by and large, the maker was not so important.

Off the top of my head, I cannot recall any study or studies.. except for the one my late pard Howard Madaus did on Colt alterations (because I made one...if it gets bright enough, I may photograph it and put some up.).

While numbers are not known... Colt received something like 11,368
M1841's made by Eli Witney from New York Arsenal, Robbins & Lawrence from Watertown Arsenal, Harpers Ferry's from Washington Arsenal , and Remington from Watervliet Arsenal (suspected to fill an oder from Connecticut) in that order of numbers.

2,000 altered M1841's were shipped to Washington Arsenal and 8,400 were shipped to St. Louis Arsenal for Ttans-Mississippian lads.

Colt, like (most) of the alters did not remark the alterations, HOWEVER, the arms had to be reinspected back in the System. Colt barrels are "surcharged"
on the breech with a "1-4 CC" stamps.

Curt

[David Fox]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Will: Regarding 'Nulification Rifles'. I had an old, old article regarding them which I've been unable to find since I moved...26 years ago, alas. A presentation piece of this weapon, inscribed to the then-serving governor of S.C., used to be on exhibit in the Citadel's museum. A couple years ago, trying (vainly) to research it, I was told this piece is now displayed in a private meeting room on campus. A clear picture of what appears to be a Nulification Rifle in the 1861 camp of the Washington Light Infantry of Charleston can be found on page 153, Vol. I of "The Image of War: 1861-1865", edited by Wm. Davis. Anyone out there have information on this bastardized rifle, let me know. As an aside, I wrote an article two or so years ago on converting a full-stock country rifle to Confederate issue standards, w/ muzzle turned for a socket bayonet, which appeared in the "Camp Chase Gazette". Like the M.1841, such pieces have a place in the upcoming '61 and '62 events.