A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

I think I saw a turned-down barrel version that was part of the NY State militia contracts. I was looking at originals on-line while researching these things and saw it nd that was the description. It'd be a simple lathe job to turn one down. I'd only need to get an idea of what bayonet was to be used to get the dimensions right.

I was at BRi this morning discussing these with Jerry and told him about the interest that they have seemed to have sparked on the A-C. He has 2 sitting in my shop waiting for me to attack so they are on the way (in theory at least).

[rlhardingjr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

David..,

I am glad you mentioned the article you wrote for CCG as it reminded me of an earlier one that I believe may have been written by Geoffrey R. Walden. The article was about turning down the barrel on a M1841 rifle. For the life of me, I cannot remember or find the CCG issue for which it appeared. I have kept all the issues I received from CCG clear back to May of 1977. Hopefully - maybe someone out there has better recall than I. Sure wish I could find it as it was my earliest incentive for purchasing a "Mississippi" in the first place...

Todd..,

The original M1841 with the turned down barrel I looked at in Jackson, MS had a .58 cal. US bayonet on it at the time. I actually purchased that bayonet off the rifle for $25 - which I still have. The owner of the gun shop commented at the time that he should really find a Richmond bayonet to go on it. When he removed the bayonet, I could actually see the rough tooling cuts where it was turned down as if it were done very hastily and with a dull cutting tool. So far I have not run across any US conversions cut down for a M1855 .58 cal. bayonet. It would appear that the possibilities are many. I can see where one could end up with a variety of '41 barrels and lock plates in my..., er their closets/armories...

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

1. I wouldn't turn down any barrels to fit bayonets to them. Or rather I would not reproduce that particular feature found on an original Mississippi.

2. The best thing about the US 1841s is the variety of different features found. You can create a truly unique and interesting accuracy modified reproduction rifle.

[Jimmayo]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Jim..,

Thanks for the photo and your input. Can you tell me who produced that particular rifle in the photo?

The gun in this photo was made by Robbins & Lawrence. The bayonet has no markings except a small K 29 stamped on the socket. Tim Prince of College Hill Arsenal comes up with these Drake conversion bayonets occasionally. That is where this one came from. They are very similar to a CS bayonet but the type of gun it fits escapes me right now. I want to say Fayetteville but am not sure.

The gun with the turned barrel is a E. Whitney

[David Fox]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Jim: Yep, the "Drake" bayonet is very like the type III Fayetteville rifle bayonet. In 1864 the South belatedly merged policy and practicality and ordered a cessation of sabre bayonet production. The Fayetteville rifle shed its bayonet stud and was fitted with a socket bayonet. As the Fayetteville was a heavy rifle, its attractiveness for Rebel horse soldiers was not as pronounced as lighter two-band weapons, such as Enfield, Cook & Brother, and Asheville products. Try carrying ANY long arm slung across your back for long hours and you'll appreciate the difference a pound or two makes. Fayettevilles apparently continued to be issued-out to grunts, hence the trouble taken to provide a bayonet, whilst the lighter weapons tended to find their way to cavalrymen/ mounted infantry under leaders such as Forrest and Wheeler. These men had limited use for being lumbered with bayonets of any sort. Note how deftly I avoid an earlier thread's disagreement as to what constitutes a 'rifle'; short heavy barrel or just short barrel.

[DBAR1918]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Eureka!

I found the thread where all the dinosaurs and old bull elephants go before they die! Mark Hubbs has been wearing funny clothes since 1972? Wow, I didn't start doing that until 1973. He is spot on as to weapons, equipment and clothing sported in those days- and the silly rules created in an effort to get away from the Texaco trooper clique. Yep, the three-band rifle musket rule was intended to get get rid of the Zouave and cheap smoothbore two band Enfield knock-offs. They threw the good babies out with the bathwater to do that. I carried an original M63, Type I until I could afford a brand new $95.00 Zoo-zoo in '74. We still had to use original bayonets until they came out with ones for the new M63s and Parker Hale P53's. After 35 years, some folks still retain the bluing on their Enfields...

I've seen a number of original M41 Common Rifles with the muzzle turned down; most seem to be for a form of Model 1835 angular bayonet and have the characteristic stud on the bottom of the barrel. The most interesting one that I was able to disassemble and photograph was an original Rusk rifle in a private collection. Though it was manufactured on a Texas contract and delivered to the CS government, it did have a stud on the bottom of the barrel for a socket bayonet. The owner kindly allowed me to try one of his M35 sockets on it- viola', a perfect fit. The real kicker- the barrel was a smooth straight taper from the breech to the muzzle with NO turned down section for the socket bayonet and was in the original specified .577" caliber (contract specifications were changed from .54" by the Texas Military Board before any were delivered). I have a few hundred unpublished images from my Master's Thesis- "The Confederate Rifle Makers of Texas", SFASU, 1996. The rifle included for comparison is the only Tryon M41 made for the Republic of Texas that I've examined that is not a fake. The latter is completely unaltered and still in .54" and has never had any type of bayonet attachment. It does make a cool comparison and I need to dig out all the unused detailed images of the inside and out of these two rifles and scan them. If you are truly interested in examining any of these images, send me a PM since they are too "big" to post here. Or, buy my book on Texas Confederate Guns when it comes out.

Dave Stieghan
Almost as old as Mark, Rick and other "Men of a Certain Age" on this thread

[David Fox]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Dave: I believe you'll find there is a Common Rifle and an M.1841 rifle. There is no M.1841 Common Rifle.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

"Common Rifle" for the M1817 Rifle was adopted when the M1819 Flintlock Breechloading Rifle came out so they knew which they were talking about.

Curt

[DBAR1918]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Umm. The Hall series of breechloading rifles continued in production at Harpers Ferry and at Simeon North's works for a number of years after the Model 1841 Rifle began production at the former location and by producers for Federal and state government contracts.

I suppose I should ignore Ordnance manuals and other primary sources. The expressions Jaeger Rifle (without umlaut, sorry) and Mississippi Rifle are to period reporters and modern collectors the same as the M1 Rifle is a Garand to later afficianados. What is truly a spiral groove rifle was also officially termed a rifle, a trade rifle, an "Indian" rifle, a common rifle, a Hall breechloading rifle, or later a rifled musketoon by the US and CS Ordnance establishments. I stand corrected as the only one observing this thread who has seen both the Model 1817 and the Model 1841 US Rifles referred to as common rifles to differentiate them from the other forms of military rifles in period sources.

Please ignore my faux pas and return to discussing your favorite "Mississippi" look. My personal favorite was the original Tyler Rifle (J. C. Short, Tyler, Texas) I collected many years ago. Since it never had an eagle stamped on the lockplate, and the hand-stamped CS was not a serif font, I suppose it really isn't a "Mississippi" variant.

Humbled,

Dave Stieghan

[M.Latham]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Dave,

You Blaspheme.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

"I suppose I should ignore Ordnance manuals and other primary sources. The expressions Jaeger Rifle (without umlaut, sorry) and Mississippi Rifle are to period reporters and modern collectors the same as the M1 Rifle is a Garand to later afficianados. What is truly a spiral groove rifle was also officially termed a rifle, a trade rifle, an "Indian" rifle, a common rifle, a Hall breechloading rifle, or later a rifled musketoon by the US and CS Ordnance establishments. I stand corrected as the only one observing this thread who has seen both the Model 1817 and the Model 1841 US Rifles referred to as common rifles to differentiate them from the other forms of military rifles in period sources."

I'll pick up that gauntlet. ;) :)

In the interest of the potential for learning, continuing the discussion, and the gauntlet, please go ahead and post some Period references that refer to the M1841 Rifle as a Common Rifle.

Curt
Who chooses to ignore the 1863 Confederate Ordnance Manual that refers to the "Rifle, model of 1842." Mess

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

E-gad! Got the "Eagle on US Firearms book in the mail last night. You were right. It has MORE than I'd ever want to know. I see a lot of good pics I can tinker with to get a stamp copied. Thanks for the advice.

[M.Latham]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

"In the interest of the potential for learning, continuing the discussion, and the gauntlet, please go ahead and post some Period references that refer to the M1841 Rifle as a Common Rifle."

I didn't write the approbation, but I'll happily argue for arguments sake.

"The Ordnance Manual for the use of Officers of the United States Army", 1850 lists the "Model 1841" as simply the "Percussion rifle"

""The Ordnance Manual for the use of Officers of the United States Army", 1862 List the "Model 1841" as the "Rifle, Model of 1842"

"Small Arms 1856, Report of Experiments with the Rifle a Tige" in 1853/4: lists the "Model 1841" as the "Regulation rifle". It is not until December 1855 during the experiments of new rifled arms, for optimum caliber size, that it is called the "Model 1841" AND an "Altered Harper's Ferry rifle"

In "Civil War Arms Makers and their Contracts", a dispatch dated April 28, 1862 from Brig. Gen, Jas Ripley, to acknowledge Major PV Hagner's estimation of arms needed, by purchase or contract he requests "50,000 Harper's Ferry rifles, with sword bayonets and steel scabbards". In addition to "500,000 Springfield Muskets, Springfield pattern model 1855"

So, despite the fact that Curt may refuse to believe it, there seems to be many PERIOD sources that do NOT use the term "Model 1841", and all are published by responsible Government entities.

Your ball.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

Boink...

"So, despite the fact that Curt may refuse to believe it, there seems to be many PERIOD sources that do NOT use the term "Model 1841", and all are published by responsible Government entities."

I am well aware of all of the numerous other Period names for the M1841 Rifle. My "request" spoke to sharing the ones where it is referred to as a "Common Rifle" since "we" were seemingly chastized for not knowing or having them.

Boink...

:)

Curt

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

"Common Rifle" for US 1841 nickname is wrong, the so-called "CR" is the US M-1817 or whatever, a flintlock. The overwhelming number of US 1841 Percussion Rifle nicknames is a subject for another thread so I think I'll start one...

2nd, the problem with "Harpers Ferry rifles" for the US 1841 is that it also sometimes refers to the later US 1855 two band rifle. They had lotsa names for 'em though as they were around a long time and were far from obsolete even late in the war.