A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

[ACo.]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

I have to agree with Curt. After almost 40 years of reading and studying American and European military rifles and examining every example possible plus reading every source of information on said military arms (period and modern, some excellent some very poor) I have never heard of the US M1841 Rifle referred to as the "Common Rifle". That was from the period of time when the US M1819 Rifle (the Hall breach loader) was adopted. The need for a way to distinguish between the standard military rifles (Rifle, US M1803 and Rifle, US M1817) soon became apparent. The term "Common Rifle" could refer to either the M1803 or the M1817 (also sometimes referred to as the M1814 which was a developmental pattern in production) but modern collectors have adopted that name to refer to the more modern arm. I've seen half dozen nicknames used for the M1841 but never have never seen the appellation "Common Rifle" used to refer to it.

Another fly in the ointment is the Model dating of US military firearms as opposed to the terminology used when these guns were in use. Most model dates up until the M1816 are collector's terms of convenience. Example: there was NEVER a US M1795 (or M1808 or M1812 Muskets) - they were referred to as "Charleville Pattern Muskets" in period documentation. Even the official manuals of the period make mistakes. The US M1840 Musket started out as the M1835 but further slight modification caused the date designation to be officially changed to "M1840". While the 1835 date was still occasionally mistakenly used in manuals in period, the official model designation was "M1840". It goes on and on......

[mslaird]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd helped me work up a short front band Whitney arsenal conversion last year and that weapon turns heads everywhere I take it. The craftmanship and talent that Todd possesses and puts into his work is second to none, in my opinion and I know firearms, very well.

You will not be disappointed by anything that Todd does.

If I had infinite financial resources I would keep you busy indeed, Mr. Watts. I always have unusual projects in mind.

On a similar note, I was asked to do an experiment and it worked out well. The park asked me to see if they could convert their old Zouave into a Mississippi Rifle. It is a real old Euroarms purchased by a "historian" a few decades ago who apparently forgot what his professors taught him about research. It turns out that the Zouave barrel will marry up perfectly with the Mississippi stock and hardware, although the front band has to be the short variety and it takes small amount of work on the height of the front sight and a small amount of work on the bayonet bar to make sure those two appendages will not crack and fracture the brass front band. Other than that, it works perfectly. So if one has a zouave sitting about with nothing better to do with it... The only thing I have not figured out is what to do with the old Zouave stock, firewood?

I have posted some photos of the Mississippi that Todd created for me.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

1. This is a very good point. We get easily bogged down with name identification because modern or "collectors" terminology is often at odds with the historic records. For example, the US 1816/22. There is a pretty good story on naming that one. They are probably most often called "US muskets of the old style" in period accounts.

2. Old repro Zouave stock? Yes, firewood. I am not aware of a Civil War rifle you could make out of it except for maybe a Georgia Armory and then its not really right either. Your first 1841 that Todd did is the inspiration for this project and mine is sorta/kinda like yours (yours is better). And turn heads it does. Yours is wonderful. A real beauty. How could you not want one of these? I am a man on a mission...RETURN THE US 1841 TO ITS RIGHTFUL ROLE IN THE HOBBY. I want to see a whole company of guys historically armed with these recreated out on the field some day. Now that would be something to see.

[mslaird]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Craig, you field the company and come hell or high water I will be there with you! (and if these other chaps I run with complete their Mississippis as planned, I will bring some friends.)

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Make it a company of the 7th TN Inf and I'll be in there as well, honoring my Gr-Gr-Grandfather.

[rlhardingjr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Matt..,

As anyone can see from the photos, your rifle would be the envy of any crowd. Todd Watts just out and out does beautiful work. I have two of my own Mississippi's standing up in gun-rack just begging for the opportunity. Soon fellas, soon...

Matt - I have several questions for you. #1 - Which repro did you rifle start out as? #2 - What parts did you have to furnish for the "make-over"? #3 - Which, if any, did Todd furnish? #4 - Of any you had to supply yourself, who or where did you get them? Lastly, #5 - I noticed that your rifle retained the screw in the lower sling swivel instead of being riveted. In looking at originals online, I did see one with the lower sling swivel secured by a screw instead of being riveted (don't recall the maker-am looking). I thought maybe this could have been a post-production modification. What have you seen or read that would indeed support leaving the screw in place? Was it perhaps a Whitney variation or did any other makers you know of do the same thing?

Regards,

[mslaird]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Rick,

It was the Euroarms .58 caliber that I demonstrated with at the Pea Ridge 146th back in 2008. I purchased the rear sight and the Whitney stamped lock from James River Armory, though both were in the white. The bayonet bar and the 1855 front sight came from S&S firearms. S&S also has the rear sight for this model as well. The ramrod is the Mississippi Rammer from Dixie Gun Works, though the arsenals also used a rammer that was all steel and they used a tulip head rammer as well. I opted for the brass tipped rammer because we had some photos of an original Whitney. The Rifle Shoppe made the short front band. All in all it was pretty amazing. Craig and Todd and I talked it over for a while to get the details straight and I just sent the gun and parts to Todd. It was an amazing project and doing the research and collaborative discussion done on it was a big part of the fun of the whole experience. On the sling swivel, I too have seen them both ways on several different makers.

Another bayonet mounting type which would facilitate using the .58 with the long front band, and I believe from my research that this was the type issued to Company B, 36th Illinois, the fellows that shot Ben McCulloch, the barrel had an 1855 front sight but it was turned down slightly at the muzzle with a lathe to accept the standard 1855 socket bayonet rather than a sword bayonet.

Also, I checked the reproduction "Zouave" bayonet, which has a much closer blade profile to that of the Yaghatan blade bayonets used with the Mississippi rifles, though the repro blades are shorter in length, it will fit this mounting system and it locks up on my rifle very well. Compared to the 1855 bayonet it has a few other characteristics that would make it a better choice for reenacting. One, it is much more cost effective being 79.00 instead of 130.00. Two, the blade does not cross in front of the muzzle of the weapon. The original 1855 rifle bayonet also curved up in the way of the muzzle, whereby the Yaghatan blade sweeps away from it. You would not be able to fire with a fixed bayonet with the repro 1855 bayonet, the other repro would be safer if used thus. Though I have not had occasion to fire with bayonet fixed. The "Zouave" bayonet is just what the reproduction is called, for some reason. It is just another type grip/ricasso pattern of 1855 bayonet similar to that used by several Confederate and Federal arsenals, for example the bayonet used for the Plymouth rifle is very close to this design. I have not tried it but I would bet that the Enfield saber bayonet repro will probably fit as well. I have long toyed with the notion of taking the blade from the repro Enfield bayonet and having it pinned into a 1855 grip. As the blade is fixed into the handle with two steel pins through the grip, the chore would be removing the pins and then blades from the specimens without doing too much damage.

Another note of caution about the bayonet bar and the long front band. I snapped two long front bands in my experiment with the park's Mississippi in trying to figure a way to work the band on and off of the barrel. Even the short band, as Todd said in the posts above, takes some serious concentration to maneuver it around. I just disassemble the weapon carefully and leave the front band on the barrel when I do so. I slide it comlpetely forward and then slide the barrel away from the stock.

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Correct, that front band takes a bit of manuevering to remove and it can be a real pain. Great rifle, though and I plan to use the heck out of mine at STRI historic weapons demos. And unlike most of the Italian Civil War repros which you would have to call no better than "fair to good", the worst of the Mississippi Rifles from Euroarms are "good" and from there, those older Zolis and Bernies get better still, some are right up to "best."

We are lucky at this time in the hobby to have the options we do have on some of these defarbed weapons, with the quality and workmanship available--it was not always like this.

[mslaird]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Craig,

I have a photo of an original that I have to go and dig out of the archives in my external hardrive for you. It is of a 1803 Harpers Ferry, converted to percussion, and turned into a Mississippi Rifle with the addition of the forestock and furniture after removing the rib under the barrel. Governor Jackson of Missouri sent Sterling Price a letter where he told him that he was having Mississippi Rifles made for him to arm his troops with. I will dig up that as well this afternoon and post the photo and the reference qoute and information. However, If memory serves me correct, the particular rifle I have the photograph of was possibly done by a gunsmith in Virginia during the scramble for military ordinance at the start of the war.

[mslaird]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

I posted earlier about the arsenal conversion of US Model 1841 where the barrel was turned down to accept a 1855 bayonet. I forgot to mention the other method whereby the barrel was turned down and a stud was attached to the bottom of the barrel for the purpose of affixing the 1835/1842 bayonet. I remembered that collectorsfirearms.com had an original Remington New York contract rifle that was altered in this manner. The photographs on their site provide a good visual reference of the firearm for those interested. They do have a bayonet in the photograph with the rifle, however it is in a later scabbard for the Trapdoor Springfield bayonet. I attached one of the photographs to this post.

[Todd Watts]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

This sort of modification would be fairly simple to do. They have kept the front band and stock as-is, and merely moved the sight back past the diameter reduction, brazed on a stud and refinished the barrel. For our purposes it'd be a really unique MS rifle for those that can't stand having anything that anyone else has ever even heard of.

[Curt Schmidt]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Hallo!

I thought I would be safe with a Colt alteration for many years to come...

;) :)

Here is a closer look:



Curt

[threepdr]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Craig,

I saw your article on the "W. Greener, British Gun Maker" in Military Collector & Historian. (Journal of the Company of Military Historians for those not familiar)

Very interesting and well done indeed!

[Daniel]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd,

I have always had a keen interest in the arms of Archer's Brigade. (I am a decendent of a member of Archer's Brigade too. My great grandfather was in the 14th Tenn.) My question is what type of Miss. rifle did the 7th Tenn carry? According to Madaus and Murphy "The last regiment , then enroute to Virginia (7th Tenn. inf.), undoubtedly had been armed not with the 1,300 "Mississippi" rifles that the State [of Tenn] had received under the 1808 Militia Act, but rather with 1,000 U.S. Model1841 Robbins & Lawrence contract rifles that had been ordered to Lynchburg from the Montgomery on 21 May 1861 'for the Tennessee troops.' Given the presence of the 14th Tennessee Infantry also enroute to Virginia at the same time and place..." Confederate Rifles & Muskets, page 64.

I take it that Murphy and Madaus meant Lynchburg, Va and not Lynchburg, TN. If that is the case I have a problem with the time frame. The 7th and 14th Tenn did not leave for Virginia until mid July, 1861. According to the book "Life of General Robert Hatton" he wrote on May 31 at Nashville. "Am getting my boys well armed with Mississippi rifles-the best gun in the service." So was Hatton arming the 7th Tenn with some of the Miss rifles that the State of Tennessee received under the 1808 Militia Act? And if so, what type of Miss Rifle? The standard US issue Harper's Ferry rifle?

Another interesting thing, apparently the 7th Tenn did not receive bayonets for their Miss rifles until they arrived in Va. Hatton wrote on Dec. 18th in Staunton, VA. "Just received a letter from the War Department, that pleased me. They promise to have a fine sabre bayonet on all of my rifles, in about three weeks from this time. This done, I will have the best armed regiment in the Confederacy." Could the sabre bayonet give us a clue about what type of Miss rife the 7th was issued? Curt chime in please!

Dan Stewart

[David Fox]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Warning: absolutely unsubstantiated opinion follows. Dan, if your Tennessee ancestor was anticipating receipt of sabre bayonets from Richmond in 1861, they would very possibly be those mated to the Boyle, Gamble & McFee clamp-on bayonet lug manufactured in rather substantial numbers in Richmond. It is doubtful if many Mississippi rifles in the hands of Southrons early in the war had theretofore been modified to bayonet usage. The genius of the BG & McF adaptor is that it could be issued in the field to M.1841-armed Rebel troops and affixed with a simple M1A1 screwdriver. If this (shameless) supposition is so, it gives no clue as to the specific M.1841 rifle your ancestor carried except it had not been previously modified for bayonet usage. And, come to think of it, a replica of this device would be a crackerjack offering, requiring no modification of a weapon which could otherwise still be used for pre-war impressions... UNLESS such a piece also required front sight modification, too. Alas, I can't recall if it did.