A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

[Blair]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Here are photos depicting one of the most common "Drake" variant adaptation to/for the M-1855 Rifle Musket socket bayonet. It has the 1858 type rear sight, turned barrel and bayonet lug front sight of the Rifle Musket type.

http://brushcreekarmory.com/R0273L.jpg

This is one of the older reproduction M-1841 that has been refinished and modified.

[Dan Wambaugh]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Folks,

Thought you would be interested in seeing this photograph from the LoC that Brian found last night. I believe it depicts a stack of the relatively scarce variant of the M1841 rifle with the turned down barrel discussed earlier in this thread. Pretty cool stuff I thought!

The photo dates to the Peninsula Campaign, unknown unit camped at or near Savage Station.

[DBAR1918]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Here are two images of my current M41 defarb project. It takes me awhile to finish these because there are usually around six other old guns around my shop awaiting parts or my delayed attention. While the lock plate and hammer are original, the tumbler screw shown is an undersized repop that I'll replace (as well as the ramrod, etc). Watch for it fired first on either the Military Channel or Outdoor Channel.

Dave

[Blair]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Dave,

Now, that is a really nice Ashville NC lock.
Are you going to be turning this M41 defarb into an Ashville Rifle?

[DBAR1918]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Blair:

The plate was apparently from an original M41 Rifle rebuilt or refurbished at Asheville during the war sometime before December 1863 when they moved the Armory to Columbia, SC. As you know, little is known about these rare weapons and no two are alike. Most of the tiny number of "Asheville Rifles" are a mixture of Mississippi, Model 1855 Rifle, and Enfield styles. This plate is definitely from a Mississippi and I assume that it was buffed and restamped when used there. I haven't raised other markings, but the remnants of the eagle are plainly visible above the CS stamp.

After studying Confederate-made or altered weapons, this seems to be a common practice to use whatever damaged weapons or spare parts were available to complete a useable weapon. Rather than buff off the bogus Italian-stamped plate of my replica and send it off for an extensive restamp process, I decided to use this plate I've had in my collection and install an original hammer. I hope to have it complete by Before the Breakout in six weeks.

Blair, watch for a special US Model Henry on History's Guns on Shooting USA (Outdoor Channel) this fall. I'm on weekly beginning on August 25th, starting with the Model 1911 and 1911A1 .45 ACPs. Civil War period guns will include the Henry, a Spencer, and an original Model 1855 and a soldier-identified P53 Enfield. I'll try to let you know before the Civil War weapon shows air.

Dave

[Blair]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Dave,

Your lock is unique to an Asheville, NC. manufactured lock plate. Please note it does not have the hole dilled for the mainspring retaining screw.
Asheville does manufacture lock plates with this mainspring screw feature. It is believed that at least some of these may have been made up from M-41 Rifle parts as well as tooling from Harpers Ferry. While the bulk of the Rifle making machinery from Harpers Ferry was received by Fayetteville, NC.
Omitting this screw may have been to simply save manufacturing time and expense. That would not have been a consideration on the original production of the M-1841 Rifles.

These are some of the standard features I have found in my studies of the Asheville, NC. Rifles. Surviving examples do exhibit a great deal of uniformity, with a few exceptions as noted.
Asheville manufacture Rifles are known and they do tend to fallow the basic formula/pattern established for the M-41; barrel, bolster and sights, lock plate shape and profile, and the trigger guard assembly fallow the M-41 configuration.
There are two types of butt plates seen on original Asheville made Rifles. The standard brass flat type as is on the original '41's, and a brass curved butt plate like on the Fayetteville Rifle. Unlike the '41's, the Asheville made Rifles have no patch box in the stock. Stocks also use brass side lock washers instead of the '41 type brass side plate.
The two bands used on the Asheville made firearms are brass, 1/2 inch wide oval in shape, screw clamping type bands. ("similar" to the 3rd pattern P-53's) The bands most like what Asheville used will be found on the repro Cook & Brother Rifle and Carbine. These are close, but not quite correct either.
Nose cap is also brass of the type used on the Richmond made firearms except due to the heaver barrel dia. of the '41 rifle barrels. (the Remington "Zouave' nose cap is of the correct configuration)
The barrels will be fitted with a saber/sword bayonet lug of the M-1855 Rifle type.

This, of course, does not include the arms that Asheville repaired or modified, only those known to be manufactured at Asheville.
With such a nice original lock, it almost seem a shame to put it on a firearm that Asheville repaired instead of one they manufactured.
Sorry, that is just my opinion.

[DBAR1918]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Blair:

Unfortunately, I didn't collect an entire Asheville lock, just a lockplate. Interestingly, all the replica parts interchanged inside the plate except the bridle- the replica had a retaininig pin and the Asheville plate does not. The replica hammer was of a poor shape, so I fitted an original I had on hand. The hammer screw is the replica item and is the next item to replace. Neither the Asheville nor the Italian plate have mainspring retaining screws. My rifle is meant to represent a M41 repaired or converted at Asheville, not an attempt to recreate a whole cloth Asheville Armory Rifle made from scratch. That level of effort is going into recreating a J. P. Murray Columbus Rifle with double strapped upper band and bronze sword bayonet adaptor. You see, I drive through Columbus each work day on my way to Fort Benning and that is a more interesting project for me. I'll give you a call, soon.

Dave

[Blair]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Dave,

I understand.
The J P Murray Carbine is a great project too. I may have some info on that model Carbine that might help you in either a build or to re working a repro.
As a side note, the repro '42 hammer screw may interchange with your repro thumbler. You may have to shorten the threads on the screw to get it to pull up tight on the tumbler.

[Blair]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

David,

I enjoyed the talk today. By the way, Great information, thanks for sharing.
If I should have any additional info that may prove helpful to you, just let me know what you are looking for.

[Jimmayo]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Now that the thread has turned toward Asheville rifles I have a question for someone who has actually seen a few. Is the barrel band in the picture for an Asheville? I can provide measurments if needed, just tell me what is necessary. I dug this about 15 years ago in Petersburg and have ruled out just about any arm except the Asheville. I am pretty sure it is CS since there are some casting bubbles in the band.

[Blair]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Jim,

The band itself is of the correct configuration for the Asheville Rifles I have seen, as well as for the very late War Dickson Nelson & Co. type II Rifles.
What is odd, in my opinion, is the swivel and how it is attached to this clamping band. The screw clamping the band not the swivel.
The swivels I have seen on this type of clamping type/style front band is very much like the 3rd Pattern P-53 front swivel. A signal center hung stud for the screw to hold the swivel to the band.
This double stud type swivel is on the outside of the clamping portion of the band. This arrangement may not have allowed the band to clamp onto the wood and barrel tight enough to keep it in place.
May account for why it was lost? Especially if the firearm had no sling.
Just my thoughts on this.

[DBAR1918]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Jim:

That is a unique band and sling set. Is there any evidence of wear on an edge that would indicate use of a band spring?

Dave

[MarkTK36thIL]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

The only configuration that I know of that the 36th was using was the type that had the barrels turned down to accept 1855 bayonets. They may have had saber bayonet arsenal converted Mississippis as well but I have not come across a specific reference to those. Bailey wrote in his memoir that the dead and wounded skirmishers from the Company that killed McCulloch were armed with Mississippi Rifles and that his men took those weapons from them. McCulloch was killed with a .58 caliber Minie/Burton ball so it corroborates both Bailey's statement and that the 36th received their converted Mississippi Rifles before the Battle of Pea Ridge.

Matt,
I didn't pay any attention to this thread until I saw this:
"We stood around for some time and were at last ordered to fall in for our arms. Company A got Enfielf rifles and Company B got U.S. rifles with sabre bayonets. The balance of the regiment got a variety of rifled muskets with bayonets." -My Grandfather was a Drummer Boy: A Civil War Diary and letters of Charles B. Styles (Co. A, 36th IL). Sent you a link to an original image with a M1841.

[Tom Dodson]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Just a side note to the big thread here but I believe Mississippi and all 2 band rifles are underrepresented at some LH's and, you AC's pardon the expression, reenactments. Most 2 bands are banned for "safety reasons". I see no safety issues that could not be overcome by common sense and a little drill/training. One of my big regrets is selling a 2 band Enfield I bought from Dixie Gun Works about 1980. I found out prior to attending my first event that 2 bands were not allowed. I do not claim to know the historical accuracy of the weapon but it was one of the most beautiful repros I have ever seen.
Mods, if this is out of text or inappropriate for any reason, feel free to delete as I know you will.
Tom Dodson

[Craig L Barry]

Re: A Mississippi Rifle by Todd Watts

Todd Watts is a descendant of a Confederate soldier in one of the Tennessee outfits who carried a US 1841 rifle so
the subject matter is near and dear to him. I am also a big fan of their appearance and functionality. We are starting
to see representation of the US 1841 at living histories and park service events, which while they are not proportionate
are a step in the right direction. Someone is finally trying to get these historically important weapons "right."

As far as the historical accuracy of the mid-1970s -1980 vintage repro two band Enfield rifle though it may have been attractive,
it was probably not too much more correct in terms of its historical features than those being made today. The repros mostly
resemble the 1858 Naval Rifle in some ways, but with the wrong hardware/sights/swivels etc.